Too boring to form an opinion on.

>>36079
Never saw the appeal of watching people play games, and from what I gather vtubers are the next incarnation of that? At best I suppose it could be like a watered down slice of life, but doing a SoL properly requires effort put into developing the friendships between the characters (and thus indirectly the bond between the viewer and the characters). And given that most vtubers videos have just a single person doing things, it makes that requisite setup hard to achieve.

A second factor is that vtubers seem to be in that uncanny valley where the first person feel overrides the usual suspension of disbelief that anime girls are endowed with. (Interestingly shorts such as One Room didn't evoke this weird feeling, so I suppose it's not necessarily the "first-person" viewpoint but also the implicit knowledge that this is a stream). A large part of the vtuber experience also seems to be in keeping up with the community, and I don't have enough energy for that.

That said I only base my knowledge on watching a few shorts (mainly from the kizuna-ai period; not much idea about this newer generation of "vtubers"), so I may well be wrong on any of the above.

>>36081
>doing a SoL properly requires effort put into developing the friendships between the characters
Why does SoL necessitate friendship? There's genre conventions, but fundementally SoL could be about anybody's daily life, including people with no friends. Strict expectations breed formularism.

I really hope this site won't be obsessed with vtubers too.

>>36083
I doubt it. Considering the general curmudgeon-ness of TC, most new things are ignored or disliked.

>>36083
I'm glad someone else on this site watched Null Peta.

Like this anon said >>36081, I've never liked "lets plays" or celebrity culture. Videogames are an interactive medium, to watch people play them feels like it defeats the purpose, unless it's tips on how to get past a difficult part or an actual review of the game. A person who's opinions I respect sharing their thoughts on something I've played/watched as a review can be interesting, watching them watch/play it just ruins the intended experience.
With celebrities, I could never understand the obsessive fascination people can have with some person they've never met and likely never will just because they're on the big screen. I guess it's like a 3DPD waifu to them? I just see movie stars as normal people being paid to do a job as part of a product to be sold to consumers. Some do a better job at it than others, but that's speaking purely from an objective standpoint. I wouldn't watch a movie just because Joe Douche is in the lead role.

I also couldn't give less of a shit about Japanese idols, which I think vtubers are basically a more accessible extension of. I mean it's basically the same thing. I've enjoyed some anime about 2D idols, but those typically have plots, and moderately competent writing making them worth watching. It rarely goes past that because I just don't see the point. Even from the waifu perspective it's hard to picture myself forming an attachment to someone who's job it is to seduce men and suck their wallets dry. You'd have a slim to none change of forming any level of relationship with people like that, they'd treat you like just another fan. Maybe I'm just weird but idols give off this weird sort of non-sexual prostitution vibe. ..which isn't helped by all the rumors of them sucking their way to the top, intentionally sexually suggestive songs, slutty outfits, and bat shit crazy perverted stalker fan bases.
V-tubers are just subpar idols hiding behind a 2D mask with lower expectations. From what I've seen, they range from retards to cretans who deserve neither fame nor fortune. A couple can sing alright, but for the most part they have no skills or talents that make them worthy of admiration. They're just lucky enough to have been born with a vagina which allows them to take advantage of sad pathetic lonely men who many of which use these videos to pretend they have a friend.

>>36081
>given that most vtubers videos have just a single person doing things
From what I gather, it seems to partner up a lot.

>>36087
>idols give off this weird sort of non-sexual prostitution vibe
I feel exactly the same way. People just need to feel like they're part of something bigger than themselves, somebody to look up to and obsess over, no matter what. It's just another one of humans' deficiencies.

Post edited on 27th Sep 2020, 5:27pm

Idols, at least the IM@S ones I follow, are really about the music and cute fanart.
It kind of feels like touhou with more official works.
Vtubers are the same as well but have less talent and production value, I have never seen a vtuber video aside from the old school Eileen videos and still find art of them cute! Stop being so bitter and misanthropic about everything when there's good aspects of some.

The shark girl has a really cute design.

I like some VTubers, but not enough to watch them regularly or give them money. It's kind of astounding to witness how much money the more popular ones can receive just in superchats. The streams/videos where the Hololive VTubers mention or interact with each other tend to be more entertaining than the ones where they're essentially just monologuing.

I'm curious about what anime fans who dislike VTubers think of Tesagure! Bukatsumono, and what people who like that show think of VTubers. Are there people who have watched both and like one but not the other? They're not quite the same thing, but they do feel kind of similar with the use of CG and a large part of the appeal being the seiyuu ad-libbing.

>>36092
>I'm curious about what anime fans who dislike VTubers think of Tesagure! Bukatsumono
I watched five seconds of it before my eyes couldn't handle it anymore and forced me to stop. I've heard some good things about it, but seiyuu ad-libbing has been done in more visually tolerable ways like in Joshiraku.

>>36092
I liked Tesagure! Bukatsumono, as well as gdgd, Himote House, and Straight Title Robot Anime. I'm also someone who don't care for v-tubers all that much.
I see what you're getting at. Half the appeal of those "anime" being the ad-lib segments which felt like an interesting change of pace to hear characters talk in a more realistic way, stumbling over words and talking over each other, and dare I say it felt authentic. This made it feel fun, like watching SoL characters drop the formalities and 'really' be themselves with each other. So I can understand the appeal of that from fans of vtubers, but... then there's Naria☆Girls, which was similar to the likes of Tesagure and gdgd, but with damn near no effort put into it. By the time it came out I was really into these adlib "anime" that looked like they were made with MMD, so I was expecting to love it, but it felt like an insult to the very small following these sort of anime managed to acquire. I could go on and on with the problems with it, but at the end of the day it came across like a cheap cash in from people who must of thought they could put out absolute garbage and still have it sell. This is what vtubers feels like to me. It lacks the structure and contextualization that made some of these enjoyable to watch. It's one thing for characters in a school club to talk about school clubs while going off script, it was another for magical girls to suddenly start talking about their weird dreams or whatever else is completely unrelated to what's going on. Sure they're playing games and 'generally' talk about the games, but even then it's one sided discussions mostly talking to themselves while occasionally trying to crack a joke or make funny noises when they remember people are watching. At that point it stops being entertainment and feels more like one sided socializing, like when someone wont shut up about themselves and/or something you couldn't care less about. It's the difference between being an entertainer, and a narcissist. I followed Ai chan when she first debuted, but quickly lost interest when she soon went from the former to the later.

>>36093
I see and hear of that happening a lot. There's no denying they're not the best looking things. Kemono friends had the same problem and was why it never caught on outside of japan. But I think if/when you get used to how it looks, they can be legitimately entertaining.

>>36086
There's at least three
>>36082
Yes you're absolutely right. I was thinking mainly along the lines of the cgdct+SoL shows (e.g. kirara-esque) that Vtubers seem to be gunning for though, in which the inter-character interactions usually play a major part.
>>36087
>V-tubers are just subpar idols hiding behind a 2D mask with lower expectations
This probably explains that "uncanny" feeling I mentioned. In anime, the only real 3D aspect that leaks into the experience is the seiyuu, but even then the fact that it's not in real-time helps maintain the implicit separation. (Interestingly enough though, there do seem to be seiyuu fans much akin to idol fans).
With vtubers the distinction between the character portrayed and the person behind that is blurred, and the fact that everything is set against the backdrop of a live, watching audience changes the situation from that of "a person merely voicing a character (with emphasis on the character being portrayed)" to "a person being anthropomorphised via a character (with emphasis on the person behind the character)".
This distinction likely also holds for the ad-libbed dialog mentioned >>36092.

>>36086
Peta-nee is such a good older sister.

I like them but I can see why people wouldn't. I usually keep them on as background noise, sort of like a podcast, while I'm doing something else.
They usually just talk about boring or simple things and it's quite relaxing to listen to. Other type streamers usually try and make everything as AMAZING and HYPED UP as possible, and then you have some Vtubers who just spend entire streams building random things in Minecraft talking about whatever comes to their mind. Despite the sort of reputation that streamers can get, I don't really think any of the Vtubers I've watched are genuinely bad or narcissistic people. I feel like I'd know something like this, at least from a gut feeling level.
That being said, Vtuber companies can be pretty retarded. Especially Hololive's company, which has a scandal pretty much every month since about April. The most recent one was a streamer implying that Taiwan was a real country, which made China mad and ended in the banning of two different streamers for three weeks. Very, very retarded managing. Maybe that's just part of being an "idol" though.

>>36096
I wasn't aware there was an OVA until I saw your post, thanks.

>>36097
Is Ueda Reina the best older sister VA?

>>36093
Joshiraku wasn't ad-libbed though, it was a scripted adaptation of the manga.

>>36098
>The most recent one was a streamer implying that Taiwan was a real country
It's sad that this caused a scandal.

>>36100
I think those segments where they wore casual clothes and talked about random locations were ad-libbed.

>Stop being so bitter and misanthropic about everything
You don't sound like someone who belongs here.

>>36103
Liking some things is part of tohno-chan. This isn't wizardchan.

>>36103
You're behind the contrarian curve, hating everything and being overly cynical is mainstream.

>36104
Hating most things is a part of it too. If you expect to walk into a place and tell everyone to change instantly to how you want you don't belong.

If they're not Kizuna Ai they're good. Hololive makes some cute wives and vtubers do engrish a lot which is adorable!

Really bad I hate them. Kizuna Ai was sort of okaish to bedin with, it was novel and she didn't actually just play games, in fact most the time she was not playing games. There is alimit to what you can do even with that and the novelty wears off. The rest are just streamers putting on airs and I don't like streamers.

>>36106
>hating everything and being overly cynical is mainstream
No, it isn't and never was. Claiming it is is a poor defense mechanism invented by people whose feelings were hurt by someone daring to dislike what they like.
Things would be much better if it did become mainstream though. Streaming and similar low engagement, low quality entertainment would never be profitable for example. Dull people who consume it would be disparaged, while in reality they are the core being pandered to.
There's not an ounce of cynicism or even a trace of critical thought surviving in the mainstream. They're eagerly gobbling up every embarrassing fad and product.

>>36110
Her humor was just not for me. Her design is good for that, though.

>>36112
It is now, and has been before. The 90s had a period of very mainstream cynicism for instance. But that aside, I think you're conflating a critical view (which is certainly lacking) and cynicism, which can be as blind as simply consuming whatever.

I think a lot of people fixate on the 'game streaming' aspect but that's only one activity out of many. I really enjoy the karaoke streams personally, since I like karaoke but don't really have any way to go do it myself.

I think people just don't find most thing vtubers do interesting, considering that they rarely have a plot.

Virtual idols... irl girls don’t stand a chance

>>36112
>There's not an ounce of cynicism or even a trace of critical thought surviving in the mainstream. They're eagerly gobbling up every embarrassing fad and product.

There's too much. Everything is cringe and everyone is worried about looking bad, 2020 and everything in it sucks, the world is ending etc. Cynicism is everywhere.
Critical thought, though, I don't know. I don't know enough about the norms but I doubt it considering some of the things I have read on my forays into social media.

To me they seems just like another part of internet personality and streaming culture, just with a 2D spin. I can understand the appeal for people that are into it.

>>36122
to be fair, 2D and 3D idols are a very different audience. Communities for the overlap of the two are ghost towns.

I prefer following voice actresses who make those dumb 2hu fanfiction videos

>>36079
I regularly watch Korone, Watame, Coco, Risu, and Gawr Gura. They're cute and cuteness is justice. Korone plays older games, which is interesting, Watame sings and has quite a fluffy personality, Coco is Coco, Gawr Gura and Risu are pure cuteness.
Are their VAs playing a character? Sure. Do I fall in love with their VAs? No. Though I'll admit that this mindset might be in the minority when I look at more mainstream forums.

>>36112
The cynicism in the mainstream is there, it's just hidden behind the facade of irony and parody.
Critical thought though...

>what are your thoughts on hololive and vtubers
Same thoughts I have about streaming in general.
The bottom just keeps dropping, doesn't it.

>>36152
For memes these things have weirdly deep lore

>>36098
I say this and a week later after the Taiwan drama there's drama about janitors.
God I hate Nico Nico. I wasn't sure a few months ago but I think I can say for certain that, whatever it was before, it's turned into a pile of shit now.
Also if you don't like drama you might want to avoid Hololive as a whole. There's been at least one drama issue every single fucking month. Nijisanji or independents like Ponpoko are probably a better bet for drama-free viewing.

Nico Nico being trash has become almost comical.

>>36213
Are there any better alternatives? Why would nico nico of all places get ruined?

>>36214
mismanagement more than anything.

https://soranews24.com/2020/10/06/drain-me-of-my-blood-otaku-rush-to-donate-for-anime-vtuber-nurse/

>>36079
I don't really care about them but they are really exploding in popularity lately and I suppose I can see why.

>>36193
>>36213
What happened?

>>36224
First two girls (Coco, Haato) got suspended for three weeks for mentioning Taiwan (which made the CCP-landers hilariously angry).
Then a couple of them joked about janitor being a shit job and that somehow got people's panties into knots too. It's like nobody remembers how to take it easy nowadays.

>>36229
That's stupid, how does it relate to niconico though? Aren't all these vtubers mostly on youtube?

>>36233
The janitor thing was pushed by people from NicoNico, largely salty that most Vtubers used to be NicoNico personalities before and seeing them as traitor of a sort.

>>36237
Well that's harsh, thanks for telling me. People are really incapable of taking it easy nowadays as you've said.

>>36229
>It's like nobody remembers how to take it easy nowadays.
I think people just like drama, and these people know it.

I request posting about vsluts to be bannable.

>>36262
I agree fully!

>>36262
While I might not be a fan, for better or worse they're a part of otaku culture now.

>>36265
It's done less damage than mobile games, at least.

>>36265
Are you sure they're not just a part of the "culture" of normalfags who pretend to like anime?

Only the western ones. Look on futaba. there is a faction of actual japanese aniota that love this shit.
You just feel like that because they're popular.

It's funny how polemic vtubers of all things are. They're harmless if you're not an idiot who throws money at them.

>>36079
>hololive and vtubers
They're just fun fluff; I leave them on in the background if I feel like it.

>>36079
Disgusting

https://twitter.com/Overflow_staff/status/1337377772797235203

Seriously?

>>36976
This is a joke, right?

>>36978
Far as I can tell, it doesn't seem to be.

Just another shitty branch of the streamer culture that the post-2010s kids on the internet seem to like.

Too 3DPD for me. I care about neither idols nor seiyuus, so why would I be interested in something worse. And when I want to watch videos of someone playing a game, I want no commentary, no reaction shots, and no twitch chat. Nothing but gameplay.

>>37030
>when I want to watch videos of someone playing a game
That alone is weird to me. I've done it before as a replacement for buying and playing the game myself.

>>37034
In that case why not download a pirated version of the game first as a trial version? Supposedly steam also supports refunds, but I refuse to install monolithic drm'd software (that also means I only end up playing chintzy indie titles, but it's good enough for me).

>>37092
I've only done it with stuff I couldn't or didn't feel like emulating ten years ago. Video games aren't really part of my day to day life.

I like the smol shark
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ybk0TLI2lnE

>>37534
I can't relate to your disgust because I can't even understand why people would like vtubers. Is it just loneliness? Are people unable to tolerate not having somebody's voice in their ear constantly? Anime and masturbation is a faster and more enjoyable solution.

I shrimp for GawrGura's singing.

>>38682
Monster Mash
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TZYjq3_q2vQ

vtuber = 3DPD

>>38937
I only get that vibe from certain ones, some put way more effort into being in character like the old Eilene stuff if you remember that.
Some are just a 3dpd talking with a filter like this https://youtu.be/AVUyo5YkMcQ

>>38938
In my mind there's a spectrum in how far character idealizations are from their underlying physical manifestations. At the "rawest" level you have seiyuu worship, at which point there's really no character being played at all, and people idolize the actual 3D girl, not really the voice of the character. Somewhere in the middle you have voice doujin circles (like momoiro code, or maybe some j-asmr groups) where the focus is solely on the voice itself – and it's clearly meant to be a voice portraying an an idealized, possibly 3D character – but the setting is still such that it's far removed from real life, as if it was something that occurred in a dream. And then at the highest level of abstraction you have anime characters which are fully removed from all the messy 3D-realities (but nonetheless ultimately depend on things like seiyuus and artists to be able to be brought into conception).

While vtubers are playing a character, this character is clearly not fully defined enough to exist as an entity in its own right, separate from the underlying 3D VA. And moreover, there are some elements of the idol-group esque things with the partnerships and such. Theoretically at their "purest" vtubers could be considered close to the voice-doujin groups (and some vtubers do in fact do asmr), but the atmosphere and setting vtubers create is intentionally not as separate from reality as that portrayed by voice-doujin groups. And I also get the sense that what draws a lot of people to vtubers isn't the voice itself or the separate-from-reality illusion that it creates (as one would expect from the asmr groups), but rather the idealized portrayal of the 3D girl behind that vtuber curtain. So it feels to me that ultimately the "character" that the vtubers play isn't actually the vtuber mascot itself, but rather that of an idealized 3D girl, with the whole mascot schtick basically serving as a thin facade.

>>38945
>the idealized portrayal of the 3D girl behind that vtuber curtain. So it feels to me that ultimately the "character" that the vtubers play isn't actually the vtuber mascot itself, but rather that of an idealized 3D girl, with the whole mascot schtick basically serving as a thin facade.

I agree with this interpretation. People enjoy when vtubers play games and stuff like that because they're thinking something like "oh she plays games, or is at least willing to try them. She must be cool in real life too and not like other gurls".

Post edited on 21st Nov 2021, 7:08am

Having been watching them for the past half a year they are actually a lot closer to Nico Nico Douga streamers than youtubers/let's players, idols and whatnot. Most of them were former NND streamers anyway and vtubing is just an extension of that culture. The 3DPD part is inevitable and not necessarily a bad thing, most aren't trying to shy away from it anyway. Only a select few such as Kizuna Ai are permanently playing a character. I'm mostly forming my opinion from Japanese vtubers anyway and specifically Hololive. Ultimately, it's at worst little more than a form of avatar, that's why a lot of illustrators and mangaka are adopting the format as well. As for the appeal, I'm not so far in as the people who root for specific vtubers as idol otaku do but as someone who enjoys cgdct/sols, I especially enjoy the interactions between them. Also as I've said before, vtubers are an extension of NND so it's easier to get into for people who had experience with the NND subculture.

To expand further a little further, the primary appeal of both NND and vtubers centers upon the concept of 雑談 which is interaction between the streamers and "listeners", it's vaguely similar to radio shows. The video games and singing/idol-like elements are more like added values rather than the core appeal. Also, interaction between vtubers are a huge factor and a key part to the success of vtuber companies like Hololive.

>>38948
>The 3DPD part is inevitable and not necessarily a bad thing
Question mark. I don't see the appeal of interacting with someone who sees me as a faceless wallet.

I don't watch vtubers, but if there is even a single one out there that I would respect, they don't accept any donations, or profit from it what so ever.

>>38950
I'm not making my post in an attempt to persuade you or anyone to watch them, I'm only offering my observations. The only reason why I say it's not a bad thing is that comparatively speaking at least they are presenting themselves instead of a "character" that is carefully crafted out by corporations to similarly siphon money out of you.

>>38950
Im not particularly invested in vtubers but people have bizarre double standards about them, unless you are a completely doujin supporting consumer almost all 2D media is about making money. I guess people find the commerciality of vtubers hideous because they can see the transaction of money being done.

To me, they come off like easily accesible idols, with less disgust for their fans, but I know idols themselves are already divisive.

>>38954
Most 2d media isn't actually as money grabbing as you would think. Anime is cheap to make to begin with but most of it is based on works that are written by authors who write for non-financial reasons and many mangaka make next to nothing from anime.

>>38954
Most 2d media is a product. A company makes a product, you buy it, and then you own a copy. It's a very clear, unambiguous, transactional relationship.

Vtubers are part-product, part-entertainer, part-pretend friend. You're not really sure what they are. They go on camera for free, and they just talk mostly. They don't sing. They don't give a comedy routine. They don't teach or explain anything. And there's no entrance fee.

But they still get money. People just give it to them, and that's why they do it. In return, they give shout outs or do other little favors. They try to act all friendly and relatable and shit, but they secretly want your money.

It's disgusting. Either sell me a product. Sell me yourself and do it transparently, or don't take my money. I have more respect for prostitutes because they're honest.

Edit:I think I despise streamers in general.

Post edited on 21st Nov 2021, 8:21pm

>>38955
2D media is a billions dollar industry and anime isn't cheap at all to make. As a matter of fact animators get paid peanuts and adaptations are the worst offenders since the people who decide which series gets adapted are most definitely in it for the money. That is why so people are complaining about the state of the anime industry, it's no longer like it was in the 80s when most animes were original. Also, did people already forget about the Kadokawa incident? Mangaka earns nothing from the animes directly but their publishers does which is even more criminal. You are mistaken if you think that LN writers and mangaka are not in it for the money, at the end of the day it's a means to put food on the table for many of them. Many of them despise the fact that you are reading their works for free and would rather have you not read their works if you do not buy them.

>>38958
>it's no longer like it was in the 80s when most animes were original
That wasn't true back then either. Studios like Sunrise may have been pushing out a lot of original titles but a significant amount of the biggest series were still manga adaptations.

Hololive's vibe turns me off, but I kinda like the Japanese side of Nijisanji. I mainly "watch" (actually I just put them on the background while I'm doing something else) vtubers as a way to improve my Japanese listening skills and Nijisanji has interesting/entertaining talkers, while Hololive is more about the "funny" noises and other wacky shit.

>>38960
I've never watched them, what do the nijis talk about and which ones specifically?

>as a way to improve my Japanese listening skills
I concur, reading the chats help with the reading side of things as well to a small degree.

>>38961
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCD-miitqNY3nyukJ4Fnf4_A
Tsukino Mito is pretty well-known for her report streams of visiting interesting real life locations such as a certain establishment that does avant-garde strip shows ( https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5euaThDPHM8 – full stream in the description). She also does some other pretty creative stuff occasionally.

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCv1fFr156jc65EMiLbaLImw
Kenmochi Touya is just a funny, entertaining guy.

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCsFn_ueskBkMCEyzCEqAOvg
Hanabatake Chaika is a chill old dude (crossdressing pervert).

https://holodex.net/channel (switch to NijiDex)
Some others that might be worth checking out: Rindou Mikoto, Belmond Banderas, Yorumi Rena, Amamiya Kokoro, Sasaki Saku, Shiina Yuika, Fumino Tamaki, Mayuzumi Kai and Maimoto Keisuke.

Bonus video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tptFHPFrNCU

>>38962
Also, here's a site that ranks them by subscriber numbers if you want to check out the popular ones: https://virtual-youtuber.userlocal.jp/office/nijisanji_all

>>38962
>>38963
Thanks, I'll give them a look. Nijisanji have such a huge roster it can be overwhelming.

>>38958
>Many of them despise the fact that you are reading their works for free and would rather have you not read their works if you do not buy them.

This is understated amongst western fans I feel, there has been outright hatred towards western fans for being pirates

>>38965
Most people don't care how creators feel. We're not their friends. Those creators don't care about massive markups from translation and shipping. Or how prices rise after something goes out of print. And I highly doubt piracy doesn't exist among Japanese fans.

Look at manga prices on Amazon. It's madness. Most don't have kindle versions either. If they don't want westerns to pirate, they're doing a shit job making legitimate avenues appealing. So maybe they should think more before being petulant.

Post edited on 22nd Nov 2021, 8:18pm

>>38965
Well Zun has outrighted stated he doesn't care if his works are pirated.

What do i think? It is essentially videogame streaming, the most banal form of entertainment right after pornos and sitcoms. The 3D pretending to be 2D thing is just a cherry on top.
I do not really care if all the cool kids nowadays are into it, just keep it away from places even putting an miniscule amount of value in meritful discussion.

Shit attracts flies.

Not sure by what metric sitcoms could be more banal than videogame streaming...

I watch them every once in a while.

>>36079
Generally speaking for the mainstream ones, boring

They're basically no different from normal videogame streamers but they hide behind an anime avatar and occasionally do karaoke so apparently people think they're idols

There's a very limited and niche handful who are fun to watch because of their personality but I can't understand at all the people throwing money at them when there's thousands of viewers doing the same; feels about as meaningful an interaction as throwing dollar bills at some girl in a strip club

>>38968
You wrapped my thoughts up pretty nicely. It's not anime, it's not even otaku culture, it's just bland video game streamers with an avatar. I find it disgusting, and I don't want it being associated with the mediums I enjoy.

Sad times when even seasoned hardware/software hackers have to resort to voice changers and avatars in order to attract interest.

https://twitter.com/nullptr_live/status/1511731032785104898

>>39473
>have to
If one has something interesting to say or write, there's no need for these shenanigans. It's not hard to attract HN or other technical communities' attention if one has substance. These fags simply crave attention and validation, and they chose the most obnoxious way to satisfy their desires.

Like some but don't care about most, I absolutely despise most of the community, at least here on the west and from what I've seen in places like 5ch the japanese side is not too different. What surprises me is how huge some of them have become to the point that stuff like hololive has it's own events, they're constantly referenced in manga and and anime, the last comiket they outsold stuff like KanColle or Touhou and Nijisanji has it's own doujin event (にじそうさく). At this point I think it's kind of hard to deny that they've become part of the otaku related world but I wonder if that's because the generational shift, but I've seen some older people that like them too, even people from old doujin circles and artists seem to like them, hell, even ZUN seems to like some of them.

>>39515
Between chinkshit, gacha, and vtubers, it seems like more than half of the total attention in the 2D-sphere isn't even directed towards real Otaku content anymore. I consider all that kind of stuff to be secondary content, something that takes the image of 2D characterisations from things like anime, manga, visual novels, and other pure mediums, and applies to to a medium that is a step removed from the actual source. In that sense, it's not longer possessing the value of 2D in it's own right, but rather imitating the appeal of other mediums on the surface while having a vastly different content underneath. Like a lizard shoved into a human skin suit. Yeah, that's a good way of putting how I view it.

I really don't know whether I can blame western "weeaboos" and their attempts to parrot 2D culture in the early 2010s, or japs with shit taste, but either way its clear that 2D unfortunately became big enough that its appeal alone could be taken and used for marketing things that are not, in my eyes, Japanimation, Japanese, or even Animation.

>>39519
if it's not from japan and/or a japanese artist, thy're not otaku culture. That's it.
>2010
it was 2015. 2010 was when japanimation got wolrdwide recongnation and on internets and medias

>>39515
>>39519
>>39520
It's fascinating really, seeing so much disgust (not from you guys in particular, just posts from IBs and such) over something I don't know anything about. It really makes you feel from outerspace, it's kinda nice really to be so alienated on this particular topic.

What's so awful about it anyway? Can you give me a brief reason why 2D avatars are bad? I'm genuinely curious, I literally never watched more than 2 minutes worth of vtubers' content.

>>39515
>they're constantly referenced in manga and and anime
This comment is what made me respond.
I don't know about anime but I'm reading about 30 or so titles currently being published on comico, gangan and piccoma, plus every current title on Dengeki Daioh and not once I remember seeing anything about this being mentioned anywhere. Would you mind telling me what manga you saw vtubers making an appearance or something, I'm curious now. Maybe it's in a particular genre or by some specific publisher? You piqued my interest by mentioning manga. If they're really starting to show up in this particular media, looks liked I'll be having my own opinions about them soon.

>>39521
The blurring behind the character and the person behind the character is one of the reasons I personally don't like them. See >>36096 and posts quoted therein for more on that.

>>39515
V tubers are just streamers with an avatar, it's not really Otaku culture.

>>39524
I don't think it's that straightforward anon, not anymore at least. It's true that anime, manga, VNs and some video games are the core of otaku culture, but as with any other kind of subculture otaku culture adapts to the emergence of other media that didn't exist when it started, I mean, gachashit didn't exist 10 years ago and now it's everywhere, and most people would accept that FGO for example is part of the otaku subculture, we may not like it but it is what it is, a sign of the natural transformation of a culture accommodating to something that didn't exist before, the same happened with videogames for example and now we have entire sections of comiket dedicated to doujin games, and now it's happening with vtubers, they might not be at the core of what we consider otaku culture but they share the same spaces and there's a huge overlap between vtuber viewers and members of the "otaku community" however loosely defined the latter may be to the point that I seriously wonder if there's any utility in thinking of them as separate communities instead of thinking of the former as a new branch of the latter.
Now, it's absolutely true that they are in fact streamers, and that by itself wouldn't make them part of otaku culture even if every otaku in the world watched them, but instead of just leaving it at that I think it's more useful to try and think what makes them so appealing to otakus (or consumers of otaku related media like anime, manga or VNs) in the first place and what "normal" streamers lack so that they don't attract the same people, I mean, I've never seen an ero doujinshi for some random japanese let's player but I've seen a lot of vtuber doujinshi, doujin games and even music, or why is it that magazines that have always deal with otaku stuff like comptiq or Dengeki G's among others are pushing so hard for them when they never did that for youtubers.
I don't know really, but I don't think it's realistic to think of otaku culture the same way people did 20 or even 10 years ago, shit changes, for better or worse.

>>39525
I disagree.

I don't actually mind Gatcha, the idea of it anyway, execution is often terrible. But at it's core Gatcha is still a game and games are Otaku culture plus they are often based on Otaku works or have Otaku works based on them.

Doujin games are still games too, Touhou is a doujin game.

There are overlaps between regular game streamers and Otaku as well. This does not make regular streamers Otaku culture either.

>but instead of just leaving it at that I think it's more useful to try and think what makes them so appealing to otakus (or consumers of otaku related media like anime, manga or VNs) in the first place and what "normal" streamers lack so that they don't attract the same people, I mean, I've never seen an ero doujinshi for some random japanese let's player but I've seen a lot of vtuber doujinshi, doujin games and even music, or why is it that magazines that have always deal with otaku stuff like comptiq or Dengeki G's among others are pushing so hard for them when they never did that for youtubers.
Just because a regular streamer lacks an ero doujin does not mean that they don't have that same crossover into Otaku culture just that regular streamers are less eroable. Video game streamers being popular is not a new thing, the biggest youtuber in the world is a game streamer(I think, well he was at some point anyway). I don't follow Japanese Youtube but I know Youtube is big there and I know they do have a lot of streamers and it's reasonable to assume that many people that watch anime in Japan would also watch 3d streamers so there is that same crossover that there would be between Otaku and masked streamers.

>>39525
>It's a dream come true to be able to meet the characters I like from a game
But they're not those characters.
>Being able to interact with them like a friend
But they're not your friend.

Whether vtubers are a part of otaku culture or not, they are a parasocial, parasitic element. Otaku are naive. Many aren't naive enough to idolize 3d people, but put a 2d mask on, and they'll throw their money at you. Gacha is also parasitic, but it's not parasocial.

So I did some quick research.

The Biggest Vt*ber is Gura(I assume) at 3.93m, she is American.
Kizunai AI has 3.09 Million she is Japanese but she has retired.
The biggest Japanese Hololiver and so the biggest living Japanese Vt*ber(I assume) is Pekora at 1.92m.

No sources here but they aren't hard to look up.

The biggest Japanese Youtuber is Junya at 15.3m. He does weird things.
The Biggest Japanese Gaming Channel is Hikakin games at 5.55m.

https://socialblade.com/youtube/top/country/jp/mostsubscribed

Something to note about this list is that it goes by the country that Youtube says they reside in not who watches them or what language they use. So number 10 is a Slavic girl making videos in some kind of Slavic language and the comments for her videos are all written in Cyrillic. Gura is also listed here too.

Now Moving on to Twitch. The biggest Twitch channel is FPS_SHAKA at 822k subs.
The Biggest Vt*ber is at number 12 and is sakuramiko_hololive at 243k subs.

https://twitchtracker.com/channels/most-followers/japanese

Something I should also mention. Perhaps as many as half or even more of the subscribers to Japanese Vt*bers are not Japanese, there were some clips of Vt*bers showing their analytics that showed 40-50% were foreign if I remember right but these were less popular Vt*bers, it's likely to be higher for the more popular ones and Kizuna Ai was always quite international, most her videos were subbed right away and many of the covers she made were English songs and that's probably why she had 3.09 million subs. I would assume that the non-Vt*ber channels I mention have a much higher portion of Japanese subscribers.


So, what can be inferred from this? Non-Vt*ber channels and even game streamers are much more popular in Japan than Vt*bers, that's even ignoring how international Vt*bers are.
It's highly likely that there is crossover between these non-Vt*ber channles and Otakus, so they have perhaps even more right to be considered Otaku culture if simply going by the number of Japanese who watch it who might also be considered Otaku(although that's hard to say as many of the people that watch Vt*bers or even play FateGo would probably not be all that Otaku).
So as we know streaming is not Otaku culture then by the metric of crossover(which I disagree with anyway) streaming with a mask has no more right to be either.

>>39528
Okay so I am already going to correct this. I had a proper look at Junya and it was just a channel of some guy doing weird 1 minute gag videos and most the comments were in English. So I think he is fairly international as well. Next 2 largest Channels were for Children, so number 4 is Hikakin TV at 10.6 million subscribers and all of the comments I saw from a brief scroll of three videos I opened were in Japanese.

>>39515
Japanese otaku don't hold as much stigma towards streamers as they do in the west, NND have existed way before youtubers so the Japanese idea of a streamer is very different to the west. Japanese vtubers also have a tendency to be part of the otaku spheres themselves and that probably resonates with the audiences. Otaku culture in Japan is very diverse, I don't think it's necessary to force yourself to pay attention to it if you do not have any interest in it no matter how big vtubing have become.

>>39525
Koyama's comment here is very apt, I think the comparison between vtubers and idols are quite fitting. That's also seemingly what their industry is progressing towards.

>>39526
Purely personal opinion but I don't think that Gacha is in anyway defensible. I find it to be an absolutely immoral form of monetization, you are essentially gambling away money for nothing.

>>39531
I've never spent even a penny on gatcha even if I like the game so I don't really see it that way. But a fool and his cash are soon parted as they say so certainly it could be an issue for some people.

>>39531
I've never paid for gachas either but these things also take a lot of your time and emotional investment. I've foolishly fell into the gacha trap twice and one of the game eventually shut down. The 3 years and all the emotional investments I've placed into it amounted to nothing.

>>39530
>the comparison between vtubers and idols are quite fitting
Yeah, in a bad way. Heed the timeless wisdom.

>>39525
>most people would accept that FGO for example is part of the otaku subculture
I hope time travel is possible so that when rokos basilisk is eventually created it will torture the people who tolerated FGO for all eternity.

>>38885
"Catch You Catch Me!"
https://youtu.be/vpRUiPAApW8

>>39527
After reading through the thread, I think this is most in line with how I feel about it. In complete theory I think the format has merits, but in practice it feels less like the best of both worlds (cute anime girls with interactive personalities) and more like the worst of both worlds (nonphysical girls with human personalities). Tacking on the fact that many of the people behind the mask are raking in money from gullible loners, without having any honest connection to any of them, makes it really hard for me to appreciate them. I think there is a realistic future (or an unknown present) where there are vtubers that focus more on building a genuine community but for now I'm inclined to see them as innocently harmful at best and predatory at worst.

Harmless fun but don't get addicted!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q8f7JNhOwbk

I <3 YUY
https://www.youtube.com/@YUY_IX

Anyone enjoying the new gen of V-tubers? I like Raora Panthera's italiano accent.

>>42757
New gen? Do they graduate after 4 years or something?

>>42758
They just keep introducing more of them. Some graduate/retire, but there's no fixed time or age limit because VTubers are eternally young.

>>42759
>VTubers are eternally young
No, they aren't >>39535

>>42760
>No, they aren't
They are. Only the voice is reliant on a human, and with the advent of AI voice cloning, even that restriction will be irrelevant in a decade from now.

>>39533
>the game eventually shut down. The 3 years and all the emotional investments I've placed into it amounted to nothing.

Isn't the point the journey, not the destination?
what were you hoping for here? That the game would go on till the end of time? Or that you would have some profound life changing experience after beating some final boss?
unless you're playing some MMO I think three years is a lot of time to get out of a game that I'm guessing you like most people played for free, in comparison to high profile video games that cost $80 and can be beaten in a week. Not only did you get years of enjoyment from it, but an emotional connection you wouldn't get with most of these junk food games meant to be quickly consumed and discarded. Isn't that worth something? Doesn't that amount to something? Do you regret going on a fun vacation because it ended and didn't amount to anything? Or do you charish those memories?

For any fans of Aikatsu out there, Bamco has now ditched the idea of making any new anime of the franchise (presumably) and has rebranded it into a group of vtubers.

https://www.animenewsnetwork.com/news/2024-07-16/aikatsu-franchise-gets-new-aikatsu-academy-project/.213285

>>42848
Huh, I thought Aikatsu's target audience was genuinely Japanese little girls akin to My Little Pony. Not surprised, but didn't imagine it getting vtubers. I tried to watch it but got pretty bored pretty quick.

>>42848
As if I needed more reasons to hate v-tuber. At least Precure is still on going.

>>42849
I think they're still trying to target that audience. Pekora has been in Ciao magazine after all so it must be popular with that group, but I wouldn't have any more insight into it than that. To me, it's just disappointing. I don't particularly care for vtubers, I don't hate them but watching streamers of any kind is just not a thing I care about doing.

>>42853
> To me, it's just disappointing
For me it's frightening. It makes me worried for the future of anime. They decided against that medium and have choosen another instead.

>>42854
I don't think anime is going anywhere, but it's clear at least when looking at anime aimed at Japanese children that things are not what they once were. They already have a very successful franchise that is a household name (Precure), and while Aikatsu was popular ~10 years ago it's just an old franchise at this point and was one among many shows centered around idols. Children grow up and move on etc. I think they're just trying to experiment with what's popular/cool now among the age group with their lesser known name and Precure is there to be the anime standby.
On the topic of fewer anime for children I would think that's just the product of lower birthrates.

>>42856
Of course anime won't stop to exist, you are right about that. What scares me is that today it's Aikatsu. Tomorrow it will be what? An overall decrease of the amount of anime being produced due to shifting to other mediums is what makes me worry, together with the possibility that what I like may get axed.
Birth rate makes sense, I checked them and since 2015 it's only going down hard. What surprised me it that it went up from 2005 to 2015. The rate is too low since 2005 though.

>>42856
>lower birthrates
Something I noticed scarily is that the countries with the highest average IQ have low birth rates while the countries with low average IQ have the highest birth rates. Yet, this doesn't take into account things like infant mortality or how many of them survive to adulthood.
Supposedly, the low birth rate has to do with low marriage rate since I've read Japanese seldomly have children out of wedlock. Many of the reasons cited were just not wanting to have kids or wanting to have more free time. It also has to do with the fierce work culture alongside a whole host of other cultural issues. I was reading this thing today where 70-80 year old Japanese parents go to this meetup to marry out their 30-40 year old working children who do not have time to seek out a partner. I was also reading some statistic where 1/10 Japanese adults 30 and over were virgins or something like that. Very wizardly country.

>>42868
In some way it makes sense, countries with low iq tend to be more agrarian/labor based and view children as a source of extra hands, so there is incentive to have them. On the flipside countries with an "office" culture don't have such an incentive, are more likely to view children as an
unneeded "expense" with no practical benefit, and perhaps more philosophically realize the futility of raising a new generation that will be sucked into the same ponzi scheme of life.

>>42869
Don't forget that "office" culture tends to allow for very little free time, making it difficult maintain relationships much less establish them.

>>42867
I'm not too familiar with other genres or demographics but I think the branching to other forms of media like Aikatsu is currently doing is because of audience shrinking. Precure and whatever else anime for girls is enough to saturate that market. Part of Aikatsu's success was its tie to their arcade machines, which I doubt are popular among children as much as in the past. I could be wrong but I think this is pretty unique circumstance because its specifically for children, and the card games aimed at girls don't do as well as the ones aimed at boys. There have been attempts to branch into other types of media before, Aikatsu did it in 2021 with a half anime/half tokusatsu that only ended up running for half a year. That was also their last try at keeping their arcade card game running. Precure is likely better off too, not just because of popularity, but because it is supported by toys only and not the card/arcade like Aikatsu was. I don't think anime shifting to other media is a big phenomena outside of this basically. Nonetheless, it is sad to see in this case with the dwindling amount of anime of the genre.

>>42757
>Raora Panthera's italiano accent
Regardless of what I feel of my own accent, I hope she won't attract the whole flock of italian-only commenters in chat. If there's one thing I hate is seeing people stubbornly speaking in a different language for the entire duration of a stream, creating unnecessary divides within the audience. With that said, I am not a fan of her design (although we do have the same taste in pizza somehow) but I wish her luck nonetheless

Rin Penrose is so pretty; I want to wife her up.

So I guess Minato Aqua got the boot?

>>42935
It appears to have been voluntary. If it were instead a unilateral decision by the company, she wouldn't have received the sendoff that she did, and all the videos on her channel would be hidden from the public.
Her VN was surprisingly enjoyable for what it is (amusingly, the true ending is arguably the worst one). It's too bad that its sequel that was in development was canceled due to her resignation.

Do new vtuber "generations" keep coming out as quickly as depicted in VTuber Nandaga? At this point I'd think there'd be an overproliferation of vtubers that are basically indistinguishable in content except for whatever schtick they choose to adopt.

Also an increasingly large fraction of "female" vtubers are just VA'd by men (with voice changers of course). There's nothing wrong with liking cute things of course, but there's something retching about people fawning over the projected "female" facade of a man (any more on that is probably best suited for /tat/ though).

I do not look forward to silicon valley startups trying to capitalize on otaku culture

https://a16z.com/anime-is-eating-the-world/

>>42951
I think the visual novel to virtual idol to AI chatbot Pokemon evolution is somewhat misled. Mostly because you play a VN to read a story and meet new characters, but you don't plan on falling in love every time you play a VN. Of course you can fall in love with a VN character, but that's rather a side effect, than the goal, much unlike AI chatbots. Dunno about virtual idols either, but it doesn't seem to fit the bills either, as it's not really interactive in any sense.

>>42951
>horowitz
you can't make this shit up