>>36079
Generally speaking for the mainstream ones, boring

They're basically no different from normal videogame streamers but they hide behind an anime avatar and occasionally do karaoke so apparently people think they're idols

There's a very limited and niche handful who are fun to watch because of their personality but I can't understand at all the people throwing money at them when there's thousands of viewers doing the same; feels about as meaningful an interaction as throwing dollar bills at some girl in a strip club

>>38968
You wrapped my thoughts up pretty nicely. It's not anime, it's not even otaku culture, it's just bland video game streamers with an avatar. I find it disgusting, and I don't want it being associated with the mediums I enjoy.

Sad times when even seasoned hardware/software hackers have to resort to voice changers and avatars in order to attract interest.

https://twitter.com/nullptr_live/status/1511731032785104898

>>39473
>have to
If one has something interesting to say or write, there's no need for these shenanigans. It's not hard to attract HN or other technical communities' attention if one has substance. These fags simply crave attention and validation, and they chose the most obnoxious way to satisfy their desires.

Like some but don't care about most, I absolutely despise most of the community, at least here on the west and from what I've seen in places like 5ch the japanese side is not too different. What surprises me is how huge some of them have become to the point that stuff like hololive has it's own events, they're constantly referenced in manga and and anime, the last comiket they outsold stuff like KanColle or Touhou and Nijisanji has it's own doujin event (にじそうさく). At this point I think it's kind of hard to deny that they've become part of the otaku related world but I wonder if that's because the generational shift, but I've seen some older people that like them too, even people from old doujin circles and artists seem to like them, hell, even ZUN seems to like some of them.

>>39515
Between chinkshit, gacha, and vtubers, it seems like more than half of the total attention in the 2D-sphere isn't even directed towards real Otaku content anymore. I consider all that kind of stuff to be secondary content, something that takes the image of 2D characterisations from things like anime, manga, visual novels, and other pure mediums, and applies to to a medium that is a step removed from the actual source. In that sense, it's not longer possessing the value of 2D in it's own right, but rather imitating the appeal of other mediums on the surface while having a vastly different content underneath. Like a lizard shoved into a human skin suit. Yeah, that's a good way of putting how I view it.

I really don't know whether I can blame western "weeaboos" and their attempts to parrot 2D culture in the early 2010s, or japs with shit taste, but either way its clear that 2D unfortunately became big enough that its appeal alone could be taken and used for marketing things that are not, in my eyes, Japanimation, Japanese, or even Animation.

>>39519
if it's not from japan and/or a japanese artist, thy're not otaku culture. That's it.
>2010
it was 2015. 2010 was when japanimation got wolrdwide recongnation and on internets and medias

>>39515
>>39519
>>39520
It's fascinating really, seeing so much disgust (not from you guys in particular, just posts from IBs and such) over something I don't know anything about. It really makes you feel from outerspace, it's kinda nice really to be so alienated on this particular topic.

What's so awful about it anyway? Can you give me a brief reason why 2D avatars are bad? I'm genuinely curious, I literally never watched more than 2 minutes worth of vtubers' content.

>>39515
>they're constantly referenced in manga and and anime
This comment is what made me respond.
I don't know about anime but I'm reading about 30 or so titles currently being published on comico, gangan and piccoma, plus every current title on Dengeki Daioh and not once I remember seeing anything about this being mentioned anywhere. Would you mind telling me what manga you saw vtubers making an appearance or something, I'm curious now. Maybe it's in a particular genre or by some specific publisher? You piqued my interest by mentioning manga. If they're really starting to show up in this particular media, looks liked I'll be having my own opinions about them soon.

>>39521
The blurring behind the character and the person behind the character is one of the reasons I personally don't like them. See >>36096 and posts quoted therein for more on that.

>>39515
V tubers are just streamers with an avatar, it's not really Otaku culture.

>>39524
I don't think it's that straightforward anon, not anymore at least. It's true that anime, manga, VNs and some video games are the core of otaku culture, but as with any other kind of subculture otaku culture adapts to the emergence of other media that didn't exist when it started, I mean, gachashit didn't exist 10 years ago and now it's everywhere, and most people would accept that FGO for example is part of the otaku subculture, we may not like it but it is what it is, a sign of the natural transformation of a culture accommodating to something that didn't exist before, the same happened with videogames for example and now we have entire sections of comiket dedicated to doujin games, and now it's happening with vtubers, they might not be at the core of what we consider otaku culture but they share the same spaces and there's a huge overlap between vtuber viewers and members of the "otaku community" however loosely defined the latter may be to the point that I seriously wonder if there's any utility in thinking of them as separate communities instead of thinking of the former as a new branch of the latter.
Now, it's absolutely true that they are in fact streamers, and that by itself wouldn't make them part of otaku culture even if every otaku in the world watched them, but instead of just leaving it at that I think it's more useful to try and think what makes them so appealing to otakus (or consumers of otaku related media like anime, manga or VNs) in the first place and what "normal" streamers lack so that they don't attract the same people, I mean, I've never seen an ero doujinshi for some random japanese let's player but I've seen a lot of vtuber doujinshi, doujin games and even music, or why is it that magazines that have always deal with otaku stuff like comptiq or Dengeki G's among others are pushing so hard for them when they never did that for youtubers.
I don't know really, but I don't think it's realistic to think of otaku culture the same way people did 20 or even 10 years ago, shit changes, for better or worse.

>>39525
I disagree.

I don't actually mind Gatcha, the idea of it anyway, execution is often terrible. But at it's core Gatcha is still a game and games are Otaku culture plus they are often based on Otaku works or have Otaku works based on them.

Doujin games are still games too, Touhou is a doujin game.

There are overlaps between regular game streamers and Otaku as well. This does not make regular streamers Otaku culture either.

>but instead of just leaving it at that I think it's more useful to try and think what makes them so appealing to otakus (or consumers of otaku related media like anime, manga or VNs) in the first place and what "normal" streamers lack so that they don't attract the same people, I mean, I've never seen an ero doujinshi for some random japanese let's player but I've seen a lot of vtuber doujinshi, doujin games and even music, or why is it that magazines that have always deal with otaku stuff like comptiq or Dengeki G's among others are pushing so hard for them when they never did that for youtubers.
Just because a regular streamer lacks an ero doujin does not mean that they don't have that same crossover into Otaku culture just that regular streamers are less eroable. Video game streamers being popular is not a new thing, the biggest youtuber in the world is a game streamer(I think, well he was at some point anyway). I don't follow Japanese Youtube but I know Youtube is big there and I know they do have a lot of streamers and it's reasonable to assume that many people that watch anime in Japan would also watch 3d streamers so there is that same crossover that there would be between Otaku and masked streamers.

>>39525
>It's a dream come true to be able to meet the characters I like from a game
But they're not those characters.
>Being able to interact with them like a friend
But they're not your friend.

Whether vtubers are a part of otaku culture or not, they are a parasocial, parasitic element. Otaku are naive. Many aren't naive enough to idolize 3d people, but put a 2d mask on, and they'll throw their money at you. Gacha is also parasitic, but it's not parasocial.

So I did some quick research.

The Biggest Vt*ber is Gura(I assume) at 3.93m, she is American.
Kizunai AI has 3.09 Million she is Japanese but she has retired.
The biggest Japanese Hololiver and so the biggest living Japanese Vt*ber(I assume) is Pekora at 1.92m.

No sources here but they aren't hard to look up.

The biggest Japanese Youtuber is Junya at 15.3m. He does weird things.
The Biggest Japanese Gaming Channel is Hikakin games at 5.55m.

https://socialblade.com/youtube/top/country/jp/mostsubscribed

Something to note about this list is that it goes by the country that Youtube says they reside in not who watches them or what language they use. So number 10 is a Slavic girl making videos in some kind of Slavic language and the comments for her videos are all written in Cyrillic. Gura is also listed here too.

Now Moving on to Twitch. The biggest Twitch channel is FPS_SHAKA at 822k subs.
The Biggest Vt*ber is at number 12 and is sakuramiko_hololive at 243k subs.

https://twitchtracker.com/channels/most-followers/japanese

Something I should also mention. Perhaps as many as half or even more of the subscribers to Japanese Vt*bers are not Japanese, there were some clips of Vt*bers showing their analytics that showed 40-50% were foreign if I remember right but these were less popular Vt*bers, it's likely to be higher for the more popular ones and Kizuna Ai was always quite international, most her videos were subbed right away and many of the covers she made were English songs and that's probably why she had 3.09 million subs. I would assume that the non-Vt*ber channels I mention have a much higher portion of Japanese subscribers.


So, what can be inferred from this? Non-Vt*ber channels and even game streamers are much more popular in Japan than Vt*bers, that's even ignoring how international Vt*bers are.
It's highly likely that there is crossover between these non-Vt*ber channles and Otakus, so they have perhaps even more right to be considered Otaku culture if simply going by the number of Japanese who watch it who might also be considered Otaku(although that's hard to say as many of the people that watch Vt*bers or even play FateGo would probably not be all that Otaku).
So as we know streaming is not Otaku culture then by the metric of crossover(which I disagree with anyway) streaming with a mask has no more right to be either.

>>39528
Okay so I am already going to correct this. I had a proper look at Junya and it was just a channel of some guy doing weird 1 minute gag videos and most the comments were in English. So I think he is fairly international as well. Next 2 largest Channels were for Children, so number 4 is Hikakin TV at 10.6 million subscribers and all of the comments I saw from a brief scroll of three videos I opened were in Japanese.

>>39515
Japanese otaku don't hold as much stigma towards streamers as they do in the west, NND have existed way before youtubers so the Japanese idea of a streamer is very different to the west. Japanese vtubers also have a tendency to be part of the otaku spheres themselves and that probably resonates with the audiences. Otaku culture in Japan is very diverse, I don't think it's necessary to force yourself to pay attention to it if you do not have any interest in it no matter how big vtubing have become.

>>39525
Koyama's comment here is very apt, I think the comparison between vtubers and idols are quite fitting. That's also seemingly what their industry is progressing towards.

>>39526
Purely personal opinion but I don't think that Gacha is in anyway defensible. I find it to be an absolutely immoral form of monetization, you are essentially gambling away money for nothing.

>>39531
I've never spent even a penny on gatcha even if I like the game so I don't really see it that way. But a fool and his cash are soon parted as they say so certainly it could be an issue for some people.

>>39531
I've never paid for gachas either but these things also take a lot of your time and emotional investment. I've foolishly fell into the gacha trap twice and one of the game eventually shut down. The 3 years and all the emotional investments I've placed into it amounted to nothing.

>>39530
>the comparison between vtubers and idols are quite fitting
Yeah, in a bad way. Heed the timeless wisdom.

>>39525
>most people would accept that FGO for example is part of the otaku subculture
I hope time travel is possible so that when rokos basilisk is eventually created it will torture the people who tolerated FGO for all eternity.

>>38885
"Catch You Catch Me!"
https://youtu.be/vpRUiPAApW8

>>39527
After reading through the thread, I think this is most in line with how I feel about it. In complete theory I think the format has merits, but in practice it feels less like the best of both worlds (cute anime girls with interactive personalities) and more like the worst of both worlds (nonphysical girls with human personalities). Tacking on the fact that many of the people behind the mask are raking in money from gullible loners, without having any honest connection to any of them, makes it really hard for me to appreciate them. I think there is a realistic future (or an unknown present) where there are vtubers that focus more on building a genuine community but for now I'm inclined to see them as innocently harmful at best and predatory at worst.

Harmless fun but don't get addicted!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q8f7JNhOwbk

I <3 YUY
https://www.youtube.com/@YUY_IX

Anyone enjoying the new gen of V-tubers? I like Raora Panthera's italiano accent.

>>42757
New gen? Do they graduate after 4 years or something?

>>42758
They just keep introducing more of them. Some graduate/retire, but there's no fixed time or age limit because VTubers are eternally young.

>>42759
>VTubers are eternally young
No, they aren't >>39535

>>42760
>No, they aren't
They are. Only the voice is reliant on a human, and with the advent of AI voice cloning, even that restriction will be irrelevant in a decade from now.

>>39533
>the game eventually shut down. The 3 years and all the emotional investments I've placed into it amounted to nothing.

Isn't the point the journey, not the destination?
what were you hoping for here? That the game would go on till the end of time? Or that you would have some profound life changing experience after beating some final boss?
unless you're playing some MMO I think three years is a lot of time to get out of a game that I'm guessing you like most people played for free, in comparison to high profile video games that cost $80 and can be beaten in a week. Not only did you get years of enjoyment from it, but an emotional connection you wouldn't get with most of these junk food games meant to be quickly consumed and discarded. Isn't that worth something? Doesn't that amount to something? Do you regret going on a fun vacation because it ended and didn't amount to anything? Or do you charish those memories?

For any fans of Aikatsu out there, Bamco has now ditched the idea of making any new anime of the franchise (presumably) and has rebranded it into a group of vtubers.

https://www.animenewsnetwork.com/news/2024-07-16/aikatsu-franchise-gets-new-aikatsu-academy-project/.213285

>>42848
Huh, I thought Aikatsu's target audience was genuinely Japanese little girls akin to My Little Pony. Not surprised, but didn't imagine it getting vtubers. I tried to watch it but got pretty bored pretty quick.

>>42848
As if I needed more reasons to hate v-tuber. At least Precure is still on going.

>>42849
I think they're still trying to target that audience. Pekora has been in Ciao magazine after all so it must be popular with that group, but I wouldn't have any more insight into it than that. To me, it's just disappointing. I don't particularly care for vtubers, I don't hate them but watching streamers of any kind is just not a thing I care about doing.

>>42853
> To me, it's just disappointing
For me it's frightening. It makes me worried for the future of anime. They decided against that medium and have choosen another instead.

>>42854
I don't think anime is going anywhere, but it's clear at least when looking at anime aimed at Japanese children that things are not what they once were. They already have a very successful franchise that is a household name (Precure), and while Aikatsu was popular ~10 years ago it's just an old franchise at this point and was one among many shows centered around idols. Children grow up and move on etc. I think they're just trying to experiment with what's popular/cool now among the age group with their lesser known name and Precure is there to be the anime standby.
On the topic of fewer anime for children I would think that's just the product of lower birthrates.

>>42856
Of course anime won't stop to exist, you are right about that. What scares me is that today it's Aikatsu. Tomorrow it will be what? An overall decrease of the amount of anime being produced due to shifting to other mediums is what makes me worry, together with the possibility that what I like may get axed.
Birth rate makes sense, I checked them and since 2015 it's only going down hard. What surprised me it that it went up from 2005 to 2015. The rate is too low since 2005 though.

>>42856
>lower birthrates
Something I noticed scarily is that the countries with the highest average IQ have low birth rates while the countries with low average IQ have the highest birth rates. Yet, this doesn't take into account things like infant mortality or how many of them survive to adulthood.
Supposedly, the low birth rate has to do with low marriage rate since I've read Japanese seldomly have children out of wedlock. Many of the reasons cited were just not wanting to have kids or wanting to have more free time. It also has to do with the fierce work culture alongside a whole host of other cultural issues. I was reading this thing today where 70-80 year old Japanese parents go to this meetup to marry out their 30-40 year old working children who do not have time to seek out a partner. I was also reading some statistic where 1/10 Japanese adults 30 and over were virgins or something like that. Very wizardly country.

>>42868
In some way it makes sense, countries with low iq tend to be more agrarian/labor based and view children as a source of extra hands, so there is incentive to have them. On the flipside countries with an "office" culture don't have such an incentive, are more likely to view children as an
unneeded "expense" with no practical benefit, and perhaps more philosophically realize the futility of raising a new generation that will be sucked into the same ponzi scheme of life.

>>42869
Don't forget that "office" culture tends to allow for very little free time, making it difficult maintain relationships much less establish them.

>>42867
I'm not too familiar with other genres or demographics but I think the branching to other forms of media like Aikatsu is currently doing is because of audience shrinking. Precure and whatever else anime for girls is enough to saturate that market. Part of Aikatsu's success was its tie to their arcade machines, which I doubt are popular among children as much as in the past. I could be wrong but I think this is pretty unique circumstance because its specifically for children, and the card games aimed at girls don't do as well as the ones aimed at boys. There have been attempts to branch into other types of media before, Aikatsu did it in 2021 with a half anime/half tokusatsu that only ended up running for half a year. That was also their last try at keeping their arcade card game running. Precure is likely better off too, not just because of popularity, but because it is supported by toys only and not the card/arcade like Aikatsu was. I don't think anime shifting to other media is a big phenomena outside of this basically. Nonetheless, it is sad to see in this case with the dwindling amount of anime of the genre.

>>42757
>Raora Panthera's italiano accent
Regardless of what I feel of my own accent, I hope she won't attract the whole flock of italian-only commenters in chat. If there's one thing I hate is seeing people stubbornly speaking in a different language for the entire duration of a stream, creating unnecessary divides within the audience. With that said, I am not a fan of her design (although we do have the same taste in pizza somehow) but I wish her luck nonetheless

Rin Penrose is so pretty; I want to wife her up.

So I guess Minato Aqua got the boot?

>>42935
It appears to have been voluntary. If it were instead a unilateral decision by the company, she wouldn't have received the sendoff that she did, and all the videos on her channel would be hidden from the public.
Her VN was surprisingly enjoyable for what it is (amusingly, the true ending is arguably the worst one). It's too bad that its sequel that was in development was canceled due to her resignation.

Do new vtuber "generations" keep coming out as quickly as depicted in VTuber Nandaga? At this point I'd think there'd be an overproliferation of vtubers that are basically indistinguishable in content except for whatever schtick they choose to adopt.

Also an increasingly large fraction of "female" vtubers are just VA'd by men (with voice changers of course). There's nothing wrong with liking cute things of course, but there's something retching about people fawning over the projected "female" facade of a man (any more on that is probably best suited for /tat/ though).

I do not look forward to silicon valley startups trying to capitalize on otaku culture

https://a16z.com/anime-is-eating-the-world/

>>42951
I think the visual novel to virtual idol to AI chatbot Pokemon evolution is somewhat misled. Mostly because you play a VN to read a story and meet new characters, but you don't plan on falling in love every time you play a VN. Of course you can fall in love with a VN character, but that's rather a side effect, than the goal, much unlike AI chatbots. Dunno about virtual idols either, but it doesn't seem to fit the bills either, as it's not really interactive in any sense.

>>42951
>horowitz
you can't make this shit up