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36079 No. 36079 [Edit]
Love them or hate them, what are your thoughts on hololive and vtubers?
67 posts omitted. Last 50 shown. Expand all images
>> No. 37093 [Edit]
I've only done it with stuff I couldn't or didn't feel like emulating ten years ago. Video games aren't really part of my day to day life.
>> No. 37235 [Edit]
I like the smol shark
>> No. 37535 [Edit]
I can't relate to your disgust because I can't even understand why people would like vtubers. Is it just loneliness? Are people unable to tolerate not having somebody's voice in their ear constantly? Anime and masturbation is a faster and more enjoyable solution.
>> No. 38682 [Edit]
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I shrimp for GawrGura's singing.
>> No. 38885 [Edit]
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Monster Mash
>> No. 38937 [Edit]
vtuber = 3DPD
>> No. 38938 [Edit]
I only get that vibe from certain ones, some put way more effort into being in character like the old Eilene stuff if you remember that.
Some are just a 3dpd talking with a filter like this
>> No. 38945 [Edit]
In my mind there's a spectrum in how far character idealizations are from their underlying physical manifestations. At the "rawest" level you have seiyuu worship, at which point there's really no character being played at all, and people idolize the actual 3D girl, not really the voice of the character. Somewhere in the middle you have voice doujin circles (like momoiro code, or maybe some j-asmr groups) where the focus is solely on the voice itself – and it's clearly meant to be a voice portraying an an idealized, possibly 3D character – but the setting is still such that it's far removed from real life, as if it was something that occurred in a dream. And then at the highest level of abstraction you have anime characters which are fully removed from all the messy 3D-realities (but nonetheless ultimately depend on things like seiyuus and artists to be able to be brought into conception).

While vtubers are playing a character, this character is clearly not fully defined enough to exist as an entity in its own right, separate from the underlying 3D VA. And moreover, there are some elements of the idol-group esque things with the partnerships and such. Theoretically at their "purest" vtubers could be considered close to the voice-doujin groups (and some vtubers do in fact do asmr), but the atmosphere and setting vtubers create is intentionally not as separate from reality as that portrayed by voice-doujin groups. And I also get the sense that what draws a lot of people to vtubers isn't the voice itself or the separate-from-reality illusion that it creates (as one would expect from the asmr groups), but rather the idealized portrayal of the 3D girl behind that vtuber curtain. So it feels to me that ultimately the "character" that the vtubers play isn't actually the vtuber mascot itself, but rather that of an idealized 3D girl, with the whole mascot schtick basically serving as a thin facade.
>> No. 38946 [Edit]
>the idealized portrayal of the 3D girl behind that vtuber curtain. So it feels to me that ultimately the "character" that the vtubers play isn't actually the vtuber mascot itself, but rather that of an idealized 3D girl, with the whole mascot schtick basically serving as a thin facade.

I agree with this interpretation. People enjoy when vtubers play games and stuff like that because they're thinking something like "oh she plays games, or is at least willing to try them. She must be cool in real life too and not like other gurls".

Post edited on 21st Nov 2021, 7:08am
>> No. 38948 [Edit]
Having been watching them for the past half a year they are actually a lot closer to Nico Nico Douga streamers than youtubers/let's players, idols and whatnot. Most of them were former NND streamers anyway and vtubing is just an extension of that culture. The 3DPD part is inevitable and not necessarily a bad thing, most aren't trying to shy away from it anyway. Only a select few such as Kizuna Ai are permanently playing a character. I'm mostly forming my opinion from Japanese vtubers anyway and specifically Hololive. Ultimately, it's at worst little more than a form of avatar, that's why a lot of illustrators and mangaka are adopting the format as well. As for the appeal, I'm not so far in as the people who root for specific vtubers as idol otaku do but as someone who enjoys cgdct/sols, I especially enjoy the interactions between them. Also as I've said before, vtubers are an extension of NND so it's easier to get into for people who had experience with the NND subculture.
>> No. 38949 [Edit]
To expand further a little further, the primary appeal of both NND and vtubers centers upon the concept of 雑談 which is interaction between the streamers and "listeners", it's vaguely similar to radio shows. The video games and singing/idol-like elements are more like added values rather than the core appeal. Also, interaction between vtubers are a huge factor and a key part to the success of vtuber companies like Hololive.
>> No. 38950 [Edit]
>The 3DPD part is inevitable and not necessarily a bad thing
Question mark. I don't see the appeal of interacting with someone who sees me as a faceless wallet.

I don't watch vtubers, but if there is even a single one out there that I would respect, they don't accept any donations, or profit from it what so ever.
>> No. 38951 [Edit]
I'm not making my post in an attempt to persuade you or anyone to watch them, I'm only offering my observations. The only reason why I say it's not a bad thing is that comparatively speaking at least they are presenting themselves instead of a "character" that is carefully crafted out by corporations to similarly siphon money out of you.
>> No. 38954 [Edit]
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Im not particularly invested in vtubers but people have bizarre double standards about them, unless you are a completely doujin supporting consumer almost all 2D media is about making money. I guess people find the commerciality of vtubers hideous because they can see the transaction of money being done.

To me, they come off like easily accesible idols, with less disgust for their fans, but I know idols themselves are already divisive.
>> No. 38955 [Edit]
Most 2d media isn't actually as money grabbing as you would think. Anime is cheap to make to begin with but most of it is based on works that are written by authors who write for non-financial reasons and many mangaka make next to nothing from anime.
>> No. 38956 [Edit]
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Most 2d media is a product. A company makes a product, you buy it, and then you own a copy. It's a very clear, unambiguous, transactional relationship.

Vtubers are part-product, part-entertainer, part-pretend friend. You're not really sure what they are. They go on camera for free, and they just talk mostly. They don't sing. They don't give a comedy routine. They don't teach or explain anything. And there's no entrance fee.

But they still get money. People just give it to them, and that's why they do it. In return, they give shout outs or do other little favors. They try to act all friendly and relatable and shit, but they secretly want your money.

It's disgusting. Either sell me a product. Sell me yourself and do it transparently, or don't take my money. I have more respect for prostitutes because they're honest.

Edit:I think I despise streamers in general.

Post edited on 21st Nov 2021, 8:21pm
>> No. 38958 [Edit]
2D media is a billions dollar industry and anime isn't cheap at all to make. As a matter of fact animators get paid peanuts and adaptations are the worst offenders since the people who decide which series gets adapted are most definitely in it for the money. That is why so people are complaining about the state of the anime industry, it's no longer like it was in the 80s when most animes were original. Also, did people already forget about the Kadokawa incident? Mangaka earns nothing from the animes directly but their publishers does which is even more criminal. You are mistaken if you think that LN writers and mangaka are not in it for the money, at the end of the day it's a means to put food on the table for many of them. Many of them despise the fact that you are reading their works for free and would rather have you not read their works if you do not buy them.
>> No. 38959 [Edit]
>it's no longer like it was in the 80s when most animes were original
That wasn't true back then either. Studios like Sunrise may have been pushing out a lot of original titles but a significant amount of the biggest series were still manga adaptations.
>> No. 38960 [Edit]
Hololive's vibe turns me off, but I kinda like the Japanese side of Nijisanji. I mainly "watch" (actually I just put them on the background while I'm doing something else) vtubers as a way to improve my Japanese listening skills and Nijisanji has interesting/entertaining talkers, while Hololive is more about the "funny" noises and other wacky shit.
>> No. 38961 [Edit]
I've never watched them, what do the nijis talk about and which ones specifically?

>as a way to improve my Japanese listening skills
I concur, reading the chats help with the reading side of things as well to a small degree.
>> No. 38962 [Edit]
Tsukino Mito is pretty well-known for her report streams of visiting interesting real life locations such as a certain establishment that does avant-garde strip shows ( – full stream in the description). She also does some other pretty creative stuff occasionally.
Kenmochi Touya is just a funny, entertaining guy.
Hanabatake Chaika is a chill old dude (crossdressing pervert). (switch to NijiDex)
Some others that might be worth checking out: Rindou Mikoto, Belmond Banderas, Yorumi Rena, Amamiya Kokoro, Sasaki Saku, Shiina Yuika, Fumino Tamaki, Mayuzumi Kai and Maimoto Keisuke.

Bonus video:
>> No. 38963 [Edit]
Also, here's a site that ranks them by subscriber numbers if you want to check out the popular ones:
>> No. 38964 [Edit]
Thanks, I'll give them a look. Nijisanji have such a huge roster it can be overwhelming.
>> No. 38965 [Edit]
>Many of them despise the fact that you are reading their works for free and would rather have you not read their works if you do not buy them.

This is understated amongst western fans I feel, there has been outright hatred towards western fans for being pirates
>> No. 38966 [Edit]
Most people don't care how creators feel. We're not their friends. Those creators don't care about massive markups from translation and shipping. Or how prices rise after something goes out of print. And I highly doubt piracy doesn't exist among Japanese fans.

Look at manga prices on Amazon. It's madness. Most don't have kindle versions either. If they don't want westerns to pirate, they're doing a shit job making legitimate avenues appealing. So maybe they should think more before being petulant.

Post edited on 22nd Nov 2021, 8:18pm
>> No. 38967 [Edit]
Well Zun has outrighted stated he doesn't care if his works are pirated.
>> No. 38968 [Edit]
What do i think? It is essentially videogame streaming, the most banal form of entertainment right after pornos and sitcoms. The 3D pretending to be 2D thing is just a cherry on top.
I do not really care if all the cool kids nowadays are into it, just keep it away from places even putting an miniscule amount of value in meritful discussion.

Shit attracts flies.
>> No. 38969 [Edit]
Not sure by what metric sitcoms could be more banal than videogame streaming...
>> No. 39433 [Edit]
I watch them every once in a while.
>> No. 39434 [Edit]
Generally speaking for the mainstream ones, boring

They're basically no different from normal videogame streamers but they hide behind an anime avatar and occasionally do karaoke so apparently people think they're idols

There's a very limited and niche handful who are fun to watch because of their personality but I can't understand at all the people throwing money at them when there's thousands of viewers doing the same; feels about as meaningful an interaction as throwing dollar bills at some girl in a strip club
>> No. 39437 [Edit]
You wrapped my thoughts up pretty nicely. It's not anime, it's not even otaku culture, it's just bland video game streamers with an avatar. I find it disgusting, and I don't want it being associated with the mediums I enjoy.
>> No. 39473 [Edit]
Sad times when even seasoned hardware/software hackers have to resort to voice changers and avatars in order to attract interest.
>> No. 39474 [Edit]
>have to
If one has something interesting to say or write, there's no need for these shenanigans. It's not hard to attract HN or other technical communities' attention if one has substance. These fags simply crave attention and validation, and they chose the most obnoxious way to satisfy their desires.
>> No. 39515 [Edit]
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Like some but don't care about most, I absolutely despise most of the community, at least here on the west and from what I've seen in places like 5ch the japanese side is not too different. What surprises me is how huge some of them have become to the point that stuff like hololive has it's own events, they're constantly referenced in manga and and anime, the last comiket they outsold stuff like KanColle or Touhou and Nijisanji has it's own doujin event (にじそうさく). At this point I think it's kind of hard to deny that they've become part of the otaku related world but I wonder if that's because the generational shift, but I've seen some older people that like them too, even people from old doujin circles and artists seem to like them, hell, even ZUN seems to like some of them.
>> No. 39519 [Edit]
Between chinkshit, gacha, and vtubers, it seems like more than half of the total attention in the 2D-sphere isn't even directed towards real Otaku content anymore. I consider all that kind of stuff to be secondary content, something that takes the image of 2D characterisations from things like anime, manga, visual novels, and other pure mediums, and applies to to a medium that is a step removed from the actual source. In that sense, it's not longer possessing the value of 2D in it's own right, but rather imitating the appeal of other mediums on the surface while having a vastly different content underneath. Like a lizard shoved into a human skin suit. Yeah, that's a good way of putting how I view it.

I really don't know whether I can blame western "weeaboos" and their attempts to parrot 2D culture in the early 2010s, or japs with shit taste, but either way its clear that 2D unfortunately became big enough that its appeal alone could be taken and used for marketing things that are not, in my eyes, Japanimation, Japanese, or even Animation.
>> No. 39520 [Edit]
if it's not from japan and/or a japanese artist, thy're not otaku culture. That's it.
it was 2015. 2010 was when japanimation got wolrdwide recongnation and on internets and medias
>> No. 39521 [Edit]
It's fascinating really, seeing so much disgust (not from you guys in particular, just posts from IBs and such) over something I don't know anything about. It really makes you feel from outerspace, it's kinda nice really to be so alienated on this particular topic.

What's so awful about it anyway? Can you give me a brief reason why 2D avatars are bad? I'm genuinely curious, I literally never watched more than 2 minutes worth of vtubers' content.

>they're constantly referenced in manga and and anime
This comment is what made me respond.
I don't know about anime but I'm reading about 30 or so titles currently being published on comico, gangan and piccoma, plus every current title on Dengeki Daioh and not once I remember seeing anything about this being mentioned anywhere. Would you mind telling me what manga you saw vtubers making an appearance or something, I'm curious now. Maybe it's in a particular genre or by some specific publisher? You piqued my interest by mentioning manga. If they're really starting to show up in this particular media, looks liked I'll be having my own opinions about them soon.
>> No. 39522 [Edit]
The blurring behind the character and the person behind the character is one of the reasons I personally don't like them. See >>36096 and posts quoted therein for more on that.
>> No. 39524 [Edit]
V tubers are just streamers with an avatar, it's not really Otaku culture.
>> No. 39525 [Edit]
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I don't think it's that straightforward anon, not anymore at least. It's true that anime, manga, VNs and some video games are the core of otaku culture, but as with any other kind of subculture otaku culture adapts to the emergence of other media that didn't exist when it started, I mean, gachashit didn't exist 10 years ago and now it's everywhere, and most people would accept that FGO for example is part of the otaku subculture, we may not like it but it is what it is, a sign of the natural transformation of a culture accommodating to something that didn't exist before, the same happened with videogames for example and now we have entire sections of comiket dedicated to doujin games, and now it's happening with vtubers, they might not be at the core of what we consider otaku culture but they share the same spaces and there's a huge overlap between vtuber viewers and members of the "otaku community" however loosely defined the latter may be to the point that I seriously wonder if there's any utility in thinking of them as separate communities instead of thinking of the former as a new branch of the latter.
Now, it's absolutely true that they are in fact streamers, and that by itself wouldn't make them part of otaku culture even if every otaku in the world watched them, but instead of just leaving it at that I think it's more useful to try and think what makes them so appealing to otakus (or consumers of otaku related media like anime, manga or VNs) in the first place and what "normal" streamers lack so that they don't attract the same people, I mean, I've never seen an ero doujinshi for some random japanese let's player but I've seen a lot of vtuber doujinshi, doujin games and even music, or why is it that magazines that have always deal with otaku stuff like comptiq or Dengeki G's among others are pushing so hard for them when they never did that for youtubers.
I don't know really, but I don't think it's realistic to think of otaku culture the same way people did 20 or even 10 years ago, shit changes, for better or worse.
>> No. 39526 [Edit]
I disagree.

I don't actually mind Gatcha, the idea of it anyway, execution is often terrible. But at it's core Gatcha is still a game and games are Otaku culture plus they are often based on Otaku works or have Otaku works based on them.

Doujin games are still games too, Touhou is a doujin game.

There are overlaps between regular game streamers and Otaku as well. This does not make regular streamers Otaku culture either.

>but instead of just leaving it at that I think it's more useful to try and think what makes them so appealing to otakus (or consumers of otaku related media like anime, manga or VNs) in the first place and what "normal" streamers lack so that they don't attract the same people, I mean, I've never seen an ero doujinshi for some random japanese let's player but I've seen a lot of vtuber doujinshi, doujin games and even music, or why is it that magazines that have always deal with otaku stuff like comptiq or Dengeki G's among others are pushing so hard for them when they never did that for youtubers.
Just because a regular streamer lacks an ero doujin does not mean that they don't have that same crossover into Otaku culture just that regular streamers are less eroable. Video game streamers being popular is not a new thing, the biggest youtuber in the world is a game streamer(I think, well he was at some point anyway). I don't follow Japanese Youtube but I know Youtube is big there and I know they do have a lot of streamers and it's reasonable to assume that many people that watch anime in Japan would also watch 3d streamers so there is that same crossover that there would be between Otaku and masked streamers.
>> No. 39527 [Edit]
>It's a dream come true to be able to meet the characters I like from a game
But they're not those characters.
>Being able to interact with them like a friend
But they're not your friend.

Whether vtubers are a part of otaku culture or not, they are a parasocial, parasitic element. Otaku are naive. Many aren't naive enough to idolize 3d people, but put a 2d mask on, and they'll throw their money at you. Gacha is also parasitic, but it's not parasocial.
>> No. 39528 [Edit]
So I did some quick research.

The Biggest Vt*ber is Gura(I assume) at 3.93m, she is American.
Kizunai AI has 3.09 Million she is Japanese but she has retired.
The biggest Japanese Hololiver and so the biggest living Japanese Vt*ber(I assume) is Pekora at 1.92m.

No sources here but they aren't hard to look up.

The biggest Japanese Youtuber is Junya at 15.3m. He does weird things.
The Biggest Japanese Gaming Channel is Hikakin games at 5.55m.

Something to note about this list is that it goes by the country that Youtube says they reside in not who watches them or what language they use. So number 10 is a Slavic girl making videos in some kind of Slavic language and the comments for her videos are all written in Cyrillic. Gura is also listed here too.

Now Moving on to Twitch. The biggest Twitch channel is FPS_SHAKA at 822k subs.
The Biggest Vt*ber is at number 12 and is sakuramiko_hololive at 243k subs.

Something I should also mention. Perhaps as many as half or even more of the subscribers to Japanese Vt*bers are not Japanese, there were some clips of Vt*bers showing their analytics that showed 40-50% were foreign if I remember right but these were less popular Vt*bers, it's likely to be higher for the more popular ones and Kizuna Ai was always quite international, most her videos were subbed right away and many of the covers she made were English songs and that's probably why she had 3.09 million subs. I would assume that the non-Vt*ber channels I mention have a much higher portion of Japanese subscribers.

So, what can be inferred from this? Non-Vt*ber channels and even game streamers are much more popular in Japan than Vt*bers, that's even ignoring how international Vt*bers are.
It's highly likely that there is crossover between these non-Vt*ber channles and Otakus, so they have perhaps even more right to be considered Otaku culture if simply going by the number of Japanese who watch it who might also be considered Otaku(although that's hard to say as many of the people that watch Vt*bers or even play FateGo would probably not be all that Otaku).
So as we know streaming is not Otaku culture then by the metric of crossover(which I disagree with anyway) streaming with a mask has no more right to be either.
>> No. 39529 [Edit]
Okay so I am already going to correct this. I had a proper look at Junya and it was just a channel of some guy doing weird 1 minute gag videos and most the comments were in English. So I think he is fairly international as well. Next 2 largest Channels were for Children, so number 4 is Hikakin TV at 10.6 million subscribers and all of the comments I saw from a brief scroll of three videos I opened were in Japanese.
>> No. 39530 [Edit]
Japanese otaku don't hold as much stigma towards streamers as they do in the west, NND have existed way before youtubers so the Japanese idea of a streamer is very different to the west. Japanese vtubers also have a tendency to be part of the otaku spheres themselves and that probably resonates with the audiences. Otaku culture in Japan is very diverse, I don't think it's necessary to force yourself to pay attention to it if you do not have any interest in it no matter how big vtubing have become.

Koyama's comment here is very apt, I think the comparison between vtubers and idols are quite fitting. That's also seemingly what their industry is progressing towards.
>> No. 39531 [Edit]
Purely personal opinion but I don't think that Gacha is in anyway defensible. I find it to be an absolutely immoral form of monetization, you are essentially gambling away money for nothing.
>> No. 39532 [Edit]
I've never spent even a penny on gatcha even if I like the game so I don't really see it that way. But a fool and his cash are soon parted as they say so certainly it could be an issue for some people.
>> No. 39533 [Edit]
I've never paid for gachas either but these things also take a lot of your time and emotional investment. I've foolishly fell into the gacha trap twice and one of the game eventually shut down. The 3 years and all the emotional investments I've placed into it amounted to nothing.
>> No. 39535 [Edit]
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>the comparison between vtubers and idols are quite fitting
Yeah, in a bad way. Heed the timeless wisdom.
>> No. 39537 [Edit]
>most people would accept that FGO for example is part of the otaku subculture
I hope time travel is possible so that when rokos basilisk is eventually created it will torture the people who tolerated FGO for all eternity.
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