Where the autistic get artistic.
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File 131067044232.jpg - (122.53KB , 600x450 , image008_ph2l.jpg )
1342 No. 1342 [Edit]
How many of you are trying to write a story for a VN, manga/comic book, novel, etc.? I'm interested in the type of stories you guys are interested in writing and where you're at progress wise. I'd be happy to lend some kind of hand if you're stuck somewhere in your creative process.
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>> No. 1344 [Edit]
Do I create stories? Yes.

Do I write them? No.
>> No. 1345 [Edit]
>>1344

Pretty much the same here.
I come up with a lot of stories when I'm bored and think "this would make a good VN" but I'm too much of a lazy bastard to actually write them.
>> No. 1346 [Edit]
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1346
This is one I came up with when I was walking back home from college.
in the distant future people connect to the internet using their own brains as a personal computer, the isp has some kind of cache that saves people's personalities and memories over time to increase connection speed, and this cache gets completely cleared up only once a year.
The main character of the story is a NEET, he has spent the last 8 months browsing the internet, leeching off government's money to pay for it, only stopping to do the necessary stuff to survive.
He spent so much time in the net, that his mind's cache is immensely huge, practically containing his entire person.
One day, the main body gets disconnected, but the net practically never needed it, and only connected to his isp's cache to communicate.
Now the guy can't disconnect, has no idea what happened to his body, and is literally "living in the internet". This excites him at first, feels like
some kind of god, and realizes he got his dream of being a Lain come true, but he soon finds out that at the end of the year, the cache will be cleared, and whatever he is right now will die with it.
So, he has to find out what happened to his body, fuse again with him and continue his glorious NEET life before January 1st, all of this recurring to his relationships with 3D people, the only thing he avoided when he was in the real world.
I still haven't decided if the guy's body should be dead, in which case he should find an awesome scientist loli to make him a robot (pic related), or just in a coma.
By the way, the main character's appearance would be whatever his avatar was at the moment, haven't decided on that either

Post edited on 15th Jul 2011, 12:42am
>> No. 1347 [Edit]
>>1346
This was actually a brilliant concept until I got here:
>he should find an awesome scientist loli to make him a robot
>> No. 1348 [Edit]
>>1347

How can you not like the loli scientist???
It's the best part of the story!
>> No. 1349 [Edit]
>>1346
I like this. The Nichijou bit at the end would be kind of weird though.

I've always thought a historical drama would make a good VN. You could even start with an actual historical situation and have different alternate histories branch off according to the main character's actions. ex: you might play a renegade Wehrmacht officer during WW2 who could take out Hitler in a plot. Or you could adapt an old novel into VN form.

I've never thought about it seriously, as I don't have any skills to speak of except possibly the literary kind, and even then I'm not sure I'd be any good. So it's just an idle idea that I knock around in my head sometimes.
>> No. 1351 [Edit]
My idea is basically Legend of the Strongest Man Kurosawa, except with Catholic schoolgirls, who may or may not be lesbian.
>> No. 1352 [Edit]
>>1349
Lots of historical events would make for a great VN. Though when it comes down to it wouldn't most historical events be better off as something like a strategy game? This has me thinking that when it comes to historical things, it's best when trying to write a History VN to focus on things only VNs can do. Maybe thinking about this will help you narrow down about kind of historical story you want to tell.
>> No. 1353 [Edit]
>>1352
Yeah, that's a good idea too. Something like Sengoku Rance, only in a different setting. My first choice would be 15th-16th century Italy. There's enough intrigue, warring, perversion and violence there to fill a whole series of VNs. And Cesare Borgia was basically a real-life Rance.
>> No. 1356 [Edit]
>>1353
Sounds interesting, it's a good setting. I blame Dan Carlin for making me want to write a VN about Caesar and the end of the Roman Republic.
>> No. 1374 [Edit]
>>1356
I'd be willing to work on either of these. I just really like the idea of a historical VN. Lots of room for speculation as to what might have happened if X did Y instead of Z, or at a different time, etc. Such a project would take a lot of research, but historical research is one of the few things I actually enjoy. If I had more skills and the confidence that anyone else would give a shit, I might seriously consider it.

Post edited on 24th Jul 2011, 2:23pm
>> No. 1375 [Edit]
Yes I tried. Tried and failed 7 times.
>> No. 1376 [Edit]
>>1375
Here's an exercise

Place all seven failed projects side by side and ask yourself why each one failed. It might help you understand your weaknesses as a writer.
>> No. 1378 [Edit]
>>1376

Not the guy you asked but I'm pretty sure the answer would be lack of motivation each time.
>> No. 1384 [Edit]
>>1376
No I wrote and rewrote the beginning of the story for one visual novel. Reason for failure:
-Lack of motivaion (dont care about it enough)
-Lack of writing skill to properly express ideas to my standards
-Lack of ideas (only have ideas for beginning, a little for the end and nothing in between)
>> No. 1385 [Edit]
>>1384

>only have ideas for beginning, a little for the end and nothing in between

That's like every manga/VN in existence then. Actually, if it comes to manga it usually ends at the 'that's an interesting premise' point.

But if you think about it from other perspective isn't it better that way? If you know how you want to end the story won't you have to use some convenient plot developments sooner or later? Perhaps it would be better to let the story unfold on it's own. Of course this would mean that more often than not your stories will turn out to be really bad but someday, maybe...
>> No. 1388 [Edit]
>>1385
Well in general, when writing a story you want a basic premise, how that premise will resolve itself, the characters that are going to act out this idea, the things that get in their way of doing it, and so on. The meat of a(n) [action] story is the conflicts and whether they are interesting or not. You can't have a good story without them. That's why a lot of people try to write slice of life stuff, since it's more laid back and you can focus on the characters, but unless they're really sexy and interesting they're always bland and boring. Anyways, sometimes you just have to write stories that will never see the light of day to flex your creative muscle.
>> No. 1392 [Edit]
>>1388

>Well in general, when writing a story you want a basic premise, how that premise will resolve itself, the characters that are going to act out this idea, the things that get in their way of doing it, and so on.

We could argue about that. What I wanted to say is that sometimes just writing stuff without any idea how to end it works better. Of course some genres like mystery or action are more likely to suffer than profit if you take this approach but others could profit. It would rule out the deus ex machina, convenient plot developments, plot armor (actually all 3 of those are more or less the same thing but disregard that) and the like.

Basically, instead of thinking 'what do I want the character to do now?' you could ask yourself 'what would this character do in such a situation?'.
>> No. 1393 [Edit]
>>1392
I agree it comes down to an opinion... but unless you're some kind of creative genius when it comes to making things up on the fly, you'll want to plan some things out beforehand. In fact, you'll want to plan out a lot of things beforehand. Incidentally, the people who are best at making stuff up on the go are people who are experienced at planning things out before writing and can apply this knowledge mentally very quickly without having to do any in-depth planning on paper. Either way, you're going to be doing a lot of thinking.
>> No. 1394 [Edit]
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1394
>>1384
Let me help you out.

1. Lack of motivation: This is largely the result of several different problems. Sometimes you get in a roadblock when writing and you just don't want to solve it. Either put it away and think of something new to work on, scrap the project all together, or buckle down and tackle the kinks in your story. Roadblocks themselves can either be the result of continuity issues, problems with the premise, the lack of anything interesting going in the story, and so on. Make the effort to document the specifics of your problems and try to plan ahead with them in consideration. For example, if you keep running into the problem of a lack of anything interesting happening in your story, you'll want to think about it in advance when thinking up your story.
2. Lack of Writing Skills: Hey, don't feel bad about this at all. Look my image for some wise words on this subject by Ira Glass. Anyway, if you want to tackle your weaknesses as a writer you need to sit down and ask yourself honestly where you suck as a writer. Whether it's characters, action, general structuring, etc. Then go out and find things you really enjoy and ask yourself why they're good and you're not good. Find out what makes them strong and try to emulate them until you find your own stride. That's the honest way most writers get started.
3. Lack of Ideas: This is the result of a limited pool of references. By this, I mean a situation similar to an artist would find himself in. An artist who's only exposure is anime will draw horrible, horrible things. An artist who is trained to reference and draw from life has a greater range for his drawings. The same applies for writers. You have to bring a lot of influences to the table to make up anything interesting. This goes beyond your immediate ones and into things you won't normally consider. Devour everything out there you can find and really ask yourself why you enjoy them or hate them.

I've been studying what makes great writing and this is what I've come across so far. We're in the same boat, so I'm glad to help you out. There's only so much my advice can help though, you really have to get going on your own, but hopefully this helps you to get there.
>> No. 1396 [Edit]
>>1393

The problem here might be a difference in preferences. On top of preferring slice of life stuff I'm a short stories guy. Basically lack of (meta)plot is of no concern to me. It's either fun to read or it's not, simple as that.

I also believe that there is no 'beginning of the story' and 'end of the story'. No matter how hard you try (and you're supposed to begin stories as close to the end as it gets, at least according to many people who make a living out of it) you can't present all of it. Even if you'd begin it at birth of the protagonist and end it with his death what he did throughout his life affected other people so in a way the story isn't over yet.

And yeah, when I said 'Of course this would mean that more often than not your stories will turn out to be really bad but someday, maybe...' I meant that 90% of the time sooner or later you'll realize 'well, this story is pretty much going nowhere' and scrap it.
>> No. 1397 [Edit]
>>1396
You should know the beginning of a story doesn't have to be when the person is born and the end doesn't have to be when the person dies. Anyways, I will concede to our differing views on things, since I don't tend to go to slice of life stories for anything other than comedy, which is it's own beast I'm not skilled at writing. Still... I can't help but feel what you're describing to me is that you begin writing a story about every day life but give up because it's going nowhere. Could it be that it's going nowhere because... there's no conflict? Perhaps you should look towards something like Seinfeld for how to write a short story about everyday life and the weird things that happen.
>> No. 1451 [Edit]
>>1350
I'm following through on this, or at least writing up a plot summary/character bios/assorted scenes that I want to see written.

It's making me realize that I should read more; I'm trying to write a particular character's dialogue so that it's a bit like something out of a fantasy novel, but I think it's coming across more stilted/formal like Data from ST:TNG. Or full of cringe-worthy words like "naught."
>> No. 1452 [Edit]
I've written out a bunch of plot summaries, notes and character bios for a comic idea I had. 11 typed, single-spaced pages, to be exact. If the premise sounds stupid, it probably is. I was hoping to go for something with surprisingly decent character drama and development under all the ridiculous exterior. In a G Gundam kind of way, I guess.

It's about a trap protagonist who meets an alien moeblob from an all-female planet that had been invaded and gotten its shit thoroughly wrecked, and he ends up with a sacred magic dildo that acts as both magical girl henshin device and Green Lantern ring-ish weapon. However, the invading force that destroyed her planet followed her to Earth, so it's up to our magical trap hero to defend Earth along with his moeblob alien refugee. Only villains I thought up so far are a guy who has a thing for traps and falls for the protagonist, a batshit crazy one who's just in it for the sake of killing for the hell of it(Scratch that. In hindsight, his personality screams more "Starscream syndrome" than anything else), and the Big Bad himself, who should look like a grey-skinned Glenn Danzig, but twice the height and built like something out of Hokuto no Ken.

I may need to come up with more. I wrote out what's potentially the whole thing, but it's fairly short and condensed. Depends if I wanted it to be a longer, more drawn-out Monster of the Week deal or not. Assuming it ever sees the light of day or anybody reads it if it does. I'll see if I even still like it by the time I learn to draw well enough to make it.

Post edited on 22nd Aug 2011, 5:43pm
>> No. 1453 [Edit]
>>1452
On second though, I'd probably cut the dildo part and make it something else. It just needs to be a weapon/henshin device. The fact that it's a dildo is kind of irrelevant to the story, it could be anything.

I guess I'm going for a mix of ecchi and semi-serious plot and characterization later on, but the ecchi should be light enough that somewhere out there, if some guy's mom would find this cleaning his room, he'd be somewhat sincere in awkwardly explaining that he reads it for the plot.
>> No. 1459 [Edit]
I have several ideas.--->
One original VN idea was inspired by SnK,HnS;
In the future, every profession has been assigned an exact worth by society based on a supercomputer that analyzes economies.The story would basically be an exposition on how society idolizes useless people like sports stars and such.
I'll have to look for my anime idea.
>> No. 1460 [Edit]
>>1459 Ah, Here's my anime idea:

2092-Earth is hit a by a Gamma Ray burst leaving all but 400 million people dead. The only place left unscorched is Antartica and it is here that most the population scrapes by. The people who werent killed by the gamma ray burst but were too close to the blast are usually killed by cancer. One in every 350000 people however becomes a REACTOR a walking chemical laboratory. They have the power to cause chemical reactions by sheer will. Over the next few years, a faction of reactors begins to emerge called QUANTUM which wants to set up a class society with reactors at the top. One man has drifted into semi-history to the point some believe him a myth.A REACTOR of such skill that he can reverse thermodynamics some say. His real name is Louis Griffin ,but he is known across the world as CARBON.He undertakes a desperate war against QUANTUM while trying to revive the ravaged Earth. The battles would include explosions,asassinations,and more. Every fight would feature cutaways to the atomic level showing moe molecules undergoing organic reactions.
>> No. 1461 [Edit]
>>1460
Those two were my only original ideas,but I have a lot of ideas I'd like to try with existing IPs such as Negima,Redline,and a several eroge.I'll try to explain some later.
>> No. 1462 [Edit]
>>1460
>explosions, assassinations,and more
I love it.

Although I think going all sciency with it and showing more plain models of the molecules would be much cooler.
>> No. 1463 [Edit]
I'm working on procrastinating a novel for about 3 years now.
Even though I keep having ideas which fit well into it I've only got about 17 pages full of drafts for some chapters and notes to myself. I don't put everything into paper partly (80%) because I'm just lazy, but then, the novel is also very demanding in terms of style, so there are a lot of things I just don't write because I actually can't write them well enough yet.
About the plot itself, It's nothing to do with general otaku culture though, then I don't think it'll be relevant to develop further here on tc.
>> No. 1464 [Edit]
>>1459
Cool idea, but of course an idea is not a story.
>>1460
This one is really generic. The execution matters more than the originality of the concept, but when you have things like
>moe molecules undergoing organic reactions
I doubt how well you'd pull it off.

Post edited on 25th Aug 2011, 11:14am
>> No. 1468 [Edit]
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1468
Cool ideas are one thing, but execution is it's entirely own matter. This is where being well-read comes into play. Consider that the artist imitates those that he finds to be inspiring before developing his own style. The same could be said for writers. It must also be said that the best artists for things like comic books also studied human anatomy and things that are universally accepted as important for an artist. Therefore, when learning to write, there must be a time in your development that you learn the universally important aspects of telling a story and imitate how others tell stories in order to find how most comfortable you are when doing so. Often people try to write something but find they are completely unable to do much of anything. This is like an artist who tries to make a whole comic book but doesn't even know how to draw a speech bubble. Work your way up slowly and practice as an artist does when making sketches. Make short stories that will never see the light of day, experiment with the basics of story telling, and gradually become better at telling a story through trial and error. Be like the artist who goes into the park with his sketchpad to draw from life things he may never think as useful. Observe daily life and write down anything interesting you hear or think, for words are the building blocks of any story. These facts, I share with you Tohno-chan in hope that they will help you in your development as a writer, for it is my realization of these truths which has inspired me to continue onward in my journeys.

Post edited on 25th Aug 2011, 9:11am
>> No. 1494 [Edit]
At what point in making a VN would it be best to try to assemble a team? Would you rather have a good chunk of it written to have some stuff fleshed out and show that you intend to follow through, or should the whole team get together from the start?

Thinking about it from the perspective of someone being approached to join a team, and having read about indie/free game developers trying to get musicians to develop sound for them, I think it makes sense to have at least a couple chapters (or some equivalent) finished before contacting artists, etc.

But would this path create problems I'm not thinking of?
>> No. 1495 [Edit]
>>1494
>But would this path create problems I'm not thinking of?
Nope
>> No. 1507 [Edit]
So I've been thinking about the VN medium and how to best structure the story in a way that really uses the medium.

True, you could make a singular story, or multiple unconnected stories, but I think of the way I've seen people comment on YMK -- things like "I always feel bad not playing Aeka's route, just ignoring her." The impact of the relationships and events the reader has seen doesn't go away just because you change the route.

Fate/Stay Night uses this fact pretty well, making certain events on the second and third routes have more of an impact because the reader's expectations and attachments are already in place. The writer doesn't have to spend time establishing Saber's character in all three routes, only the first. This of course requires a mandatory playthrough order to truly be effective.

Alternately, there's the Ever 17 style, where every route is simply a piece of the whole story, and the reader's expectations are set up by implied facts in one route but shattered when the truth comes out in others.

Really thinking about this gives me even more respect for writers.
>> No. 1518 [Edit]
>>1507
I agree with what you're saying. The interactive structure and having a strong narrative as the medium's backbone really can make for some interesting ideas for a story.
>> No. 1523 [Edit]
I've been working on with something for about 8 months, it's about 13-year old kid starting in new school and soon after that going through personal change after some sort of crisis in his life.
Two things I've found difficult; 1) keeping the storty somehow vivid. Currently I'm trying to make sort of a journal/diary thing and it's really hard to come up with experiences and such when I never really had them in my own life, I just sat home and played vidya.

...and 2) It's difficult to make those made-up events to "sit" well in the surrounding world - ok so he got beaten up by 9th graders; what's next?
Same thing with crushes and everything - there's a nice girl in his class but it's really hard to "do" anything about it or even describe the feeling he has.

Story lasts for one winter, but keeping all the strings and events even in remotely logical order is almost impossible.

why am I doing this? for my own amusement, I have no intentions of putting this shit online or anything.
>> No. 1534 [Edit]
>>1523
Well writing a story that takes place in a realistic setting without really experiencing what you're trying to write will get you in trouble. With fantasy and whatnot you can make things up, not so with that kind of story. Anyways, realistic stories are often moved forward by their drama, the interaction between characters. Being a fish out of water is a common character type, but what makes him different? Why not take a page out of your life and make him some kind of loser who's forced to move somewhere where no one at all knows anything he likes at all. I would actually be amused by a story of random people coming across nerdy things and seeing their unusual reaction to them, especially if they were never condition by society to be against them. But that's just me and my idea, just keep trying to find something interesting you want to play out and things will come into place.
>> No. 1535 [Edit]
>>1523
My only suggestion is to echo what someone else said about being well-read. That is, read stories that express what you want to express, and learn from them. Not the same as having lived it, but better than nothing.
>> No. 1537 [Edit]
writing stories based on other stories you've read makes your own stories sound recycled and artifical. It's best to draw on your life experiences whenever you can. Even if your life experience is shit, having a shitty life is a great source of inspiration, ask a musician
>> No. 1545 [Edit]
>>1494
>At what point in making a VN would it be best to try to assemble a team?

You make it sound like assembling a team is easy! Not to mention a decent one. That said, considering that it's best to show you're very serious about what you want done will probably be the best bet.

You should also ask yourself exactly what you'll need in a team in terms of people with skill sets you need.

>Would you rather have a good chunk of it written to have some stuff fleshed out and show that you intend to follow through, or should the whole team get together from the start?

Showing you're serious can be done in any way you can, as long as you get something done. Be it by having a huge script, a time line, concept art, etc.

Keep in mind that you may find yourself becoming frustrated if the other people in the team disagree with you about where they think things should go in the story. If you can offer advice or criticism on their drawing or musical talents, they can do the same for writing. Don't be one of those guys who always takes it the wrong way (Avoid those people too, or at the least help them get over that phase).

>Thinking about it from the perspective of someone being approached to join a team, and having read about indie/free game developers trying to get musicians to develop sound for them, I think it makes sense to have at least a couple chapters (or some equivalent) finished before contacting artists, etc.

I think what would be most important for someone trying to make music for your game is the general sense of what you want it to sound like at what time. For example, what's the overall atmosphere you want? Chiptune, Jazzy, Evil-sounding, etc. Also you want to keep in mind moments in the story that would cause the music to adopt the emotion that's going on, like music when someone dies or you succeed.

With a musical collaborator, just show them the scenes they're working on, give them some kind of idea for how you want it to sound, and hope they pull through for you.

>But would this path create problems I'm not thinking of?

Nah you should be fine. Just remember to at least get SOMETHING out of all your efforts, it's best to get something done so you're no discouraged and so you can realize what you need to work on.
>> No. 1547 [Edit]
One day let's just get together and give ourselves one month to crap out a sub-par VN, even if nothing special comes out it's still something that could be fun.
>> No. 1558 [Edit]
>>1547
We've talked about this a dozen times on IRC. One day, Anon. One day.
>> No. 1566 [Edit]
>>1558
This month is ending is it not?
Nothing like an arbitrary day that is the beginning of a new month to start a project, then get bored after a day and never finish it...
>> No. 1567 [Edit]
>>1566
>>1558
This November I'll start something when I have free time, even if it's just me talking to myself.
>> No. 1589 [Edit]
I have a few ideas

The story would start out from the point of view of a young character, early 20s probably a female. It revolves around a distant planet that is not in the Milky Way galaxy, perhaps Andromeda. This planet is smaller than earth and is much more community centric, wars are non-existent in current times since there is no point to fight over what little resources they have. They’re not deep into space exploration as a species except for excellent telescopes, both radio and optical.

The technology for travel is not much more advanced than ours. Although it’ll be easy to tell that they’re more advanced than humans. The protagonist main role in this society is to search for existing life outside of her species own solar system. I’m figuring the main conflict here would be lack of support from other characters and organization similar to the challenges SETI faces here on earth. The story would revolve around trying to continue to be able to work with her equipment; how it’ll workout I’m still not sure. I’ve only began writing this up very recently so it’ll take a while to get a solid foundation. I defiantly know some specific scenes and elements I’m going for though


I'm not exactly sure what I'll do with this, I'm a terrible writer in terms of grammar and explaining things. But we'll see

Or is the whole thing so stupid I should just drop it?
>> No. 1590 [Edit]
>>1589
This might not mean much, but I like the setting very much, and I don't think you should drop it.
>> No. 1591 [Edit]
>>1589
Even if it is stupid that is no reason to drop it.
>> No. 1592 [Edit]
>>1589
I really like where this story could go (no pun intended), it could be free of a lot of the cliches facing some stories you hear about.

Something of a character driven story about someone who just wants to explore the stars in a world that just doesn't see the value in doing or learning new things. The drama could come from her trying to build her ship and trying to find the parts and equipment for it. It might sound simple but there could be some nice slice of life elements involved in navigating across the planet and it's inhabitants looking for what she needs.

Maybe I'm seeing it a bit differently than you, but that is where I would go with it.
>> No. 1593 [Edit]
>>1589
I like the idea. Now make it a story.
>> No. 1594 [Edit]
>>1592
sounds "outerspace moe," does this genre exist yet?
>> No. 1596 [Edit]
>>1592
>>1590
>>1592
>>1593


God dammit, now I have too

I'll start in the morning when I sober up
>> No. 1615 [Edit]
>>1596
Post every now here and then with your progress. We like to hear that people are actually doing something.
>> No. 1627 [Edit]
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1627
>>1615

Here is what I have for the setting, would you guys prefer I made my own thread or should I continue to spam this?


It will be set on a planet smaller then earth as previously mentioned, my main concern is how to place it. Either a standalone planet with a single satellite much like earth, or maybe something a bit more exotic like being a satellite to a gas giant. It could have some potential for some beautiful images of looking out into the night sky with a large sphere of mixed colors looking down. Much more breath taking then we have on our planet. I can’t exactly do art but I’d think it be fun to draw and create the skyline for this. I’d think I’d like at least one moon though, just to have the additional light for night scenes. Water will make up a majority of the planet, as expected in planets harboring life.

The planet itself I think will have a more resource based style of economy, perhaps money was never needed so you don’t have the kind of capitalism we have and a world filled with useless crap we don’t need. Science and art is the focus of daily life. The scientific method is highly regarded as the best way to go about things so a lot of the issues and retards we deal with are mostly taught better. Basically society as a whole is just better adapted to its planets resources and you don’t have shit like slave labor (that’s what lolibots are for) and massive oil spills happening yearly.

Solar energy is their main source of energy and it was one of the first technologies harvested as a young species of humanoids. This alone helped them with their growth, so maybe they could be around the same age as us, around 2000-2500 C.E. Their leadership is done with technology and everything is done by statistics so not to get emotion involved with important decisions. It won’t be a large population so the people aren’t as separated and languages are connection. Maybe a supercontinent Pangaea style could explain why they’re unified. Might not make sense in the geographical sense (I’ll end up reading up on this so I can figure out what the hell I’m talking about) but whatever, not everything has to make sense!

I’m thinking the people will be spread out evenly across the continent to accompany their resource style living, and not to overcrowd major cities. Most of this story will probably take place in one of the smaller areas, probably in a mountain due to light pollution and using a telescope.

The species will be humanoid and look very similar to humans just to make things easier. Perhaps smaller and more petite so the moeness and loli factor can be abused. Hey if I can make shit cute for the sake of making it cute I will. Other inhabitants of the planets can be pretty much made up on the spot, it won’t be really necessary to the plot so it’s not really important to figure it out now considering they’re the only intelligent life form.

Daily life will consist of daily route of multiple meals, and working on whatever project is needed so you have people doing stuff like construction, agriculture, technology creation, research and of course astronomy and cosmology. Everyone interested in helping out the community that supports them, so there is little conflict. Lazy worthless bums just don’t have a reason to be lazy bums; the society just doesn’t allow them to form the mentality. The arts are also important and highly regarded as well, and just about everyone is involved.

Tl;dr everyone is smart and for the most part pretty happy

I’m still not sure what I’ll call the damn place but right now I’m toying with Gliese, the first planet found in a stars habitual zone. This was pretty exciting shit during the time, so I think it would be nice.
I think I covered a lot of the setting that gives you a feel for the planet, the more detail the more emerge you can be in the story. And with a planet why not go all the way!

Other then my terrible writing skills, any comments or concerns?
>> No. 1631 [Edit]
>>1589
>>1627
I really like this idea, actually. Sort of a twist on the typical space sci-fi story. Just a near-future Earth, with it's own SETI and everything. And a moe~ (of course, I'm assuming she's moe~) scientist girl looking for extraterrestrials, and going to scrap yards to find parts for her telescopes and all that fun stuff. That sounds like a book I'd read, bro. Well, it sounds like a series I'd watch as well, but that's irrelevant. Make sure you post it here if/when you finish it.

I've got a few ideas for a few stories, but then I look at them, and realize that they're just derivative of what I've been reading/watching lately, and scrap them. My computer's full of a bunch of lame fragments that I don't like to look at.

The most original idea I have is this ridiculous sketch of a story - A NEET, not unlike us, (complete with a waifu and everything) living in Maine embarks on a cross-country journey that involves various characters he meets - 3DPD's who try and seduce him, amphetamine-addicted truck-drivers who give him cocaine. I just don't know where to go with that, though. Every time I try and think of a way to set it up, everything about it seems really self-pitying (how to include the concept of a waifu/NEETdom without seeming like a huge weeaboo, etc.). It's just an escapist fantasy of mine. Plus, why the hell would a NEET need to travel? He's a NEET. I don't even know why I put him in Maine. Top of the country I guess. But even this idea, this "most original idea I have" is just pretty much On the Road, just Tohno-chan-ified.
>> No. 1632 [Edit]
>>1631
He's traveling on foot to a Thono-Chan hideout after his house blew up.
>> No. 1634 [Edit]
>>1631
His parents died and he has to live with someone else.
>> No. 1635 [Edit]
>>1631
I am he as you are he as you are me and we are all together... No seriously: he had to move to a colder climate due to [insert reason here].
>> No. 1659 [Edit]
No posts in here for a while... just wanted to say to not give up, guys.
>> No. 1660 [Edit]
>>1659
Quite the opposite. I was struck by sudden inspiration, while staring at my wall while daydreaming and listening to music. Because that's what I do.

He has to leave because his parents won't let him leech off of them. Leaves with a bundle of money, spends a few weeks homeless, before he remembers his 'close friend', who promised to "support him no matter what" because our protagiNEET (hoho~) is quite full of wisdom, and helped him out in a jam during his school days (I guess that'll work). He goes to the library to email his normalfriend, waits another week or so for a reply, and finds that the normalfriend moved across the country. So begins his journey - It starts by car, the protagonist loses all of his money, and must hitchike/Greyhound/train the rest of his way.

The bonds between the protag and his friend have to be deep, obviously. Having trouble there...

Want to include the idea of his waifu as a companion throughout - Sort of like Ariel in The Tempest, just not impacting the real world.
>> No. 1661 [Edit]
>>1659
>>1350
Not giving up! I'm going slowly and revising almost every detail as I go, but I'm still going.
>> No. 1662 [Edit]
Was browsing 4chan and came across some links. Enjoy.

"ITT: Help for making that comic.

Post links to references and tutorials, books and tools that help make the dreams of the /co/mrade become a reality!

http://www.mediafire.com/?4dxxp4133uk81
Writing Help

http://www.mediafire.com/?jb5w47g14ovnk
Artist Help

http://www.mediafire.com/?k8dr4lz1di1jc
Misc.

http://ninamatsumoto.wordpress.com/2010/12/18/athletic-body-diversity-reference-for-artists/#

I also dumped a load of great comics in my MF account for inspiration.
http://www.mediafire.com/captaincomrade"
>> No. 1663 [Edit]
>>1662
Art one didn't seem to work so here's another

https://sites.google.com/site/4chanic/
>> No. 1687 [Edit]
Nevermind!

Post edited on 4th Dec 2011, 9:11pm
>> No. 1696 [Edit]
Two ideas:

- Otaku finally finds 3D love, and she seems perfect and everything, but he has to hide his otaku habits from her. It gets really thrilling as he almost gets caught. At the end, she leaves him when she finds out about his otaku habit, but not because she finds the hobby strange, but because she is so hurt that he was never honest with him the whole time. There is only a bad end.

- NEET's die and go to an afterlife which is a giant mansion. ALl of the NEET's turn into loli's with appearances that reflect who they were IRL. This is more of a social commentary on what a bunch of NEET's would do if they were all lolis and lived in paradise. I haven't a story figured out yet.
>> No. 1698 [Edit]
File 132254935391.jpg - (238.59KB , 850x1029 , sample_ddba260b500a5279b0ae09dc00cd586e.jpg )
1698
I've started picking things back up now that my mood has finally evened out. Picked up drawing too~


The community is divided between science and the arts, they’re not as respected since they don’t believe it gives any real advancement to the society. They’re not completely disregarded but it doesn’t get the recognition it deserves. The antagonist is angry over this and tries to fight and sabotage the astronomy department due to her father leading it and giving more attention to the protagonist. This is what fuels the conflict between the protagonist and antagonist. She’s pissed that she doesn’t get the attention and recognition she deserves. I’m thinking the protagonist will be strong in music and an underground resort will be where she goes at night to let loose and play. This area won’t be that known by the average citizen so it remains relatively undisturbed by anyone not involved with subculture. Think an underground rock club; this is probably where we will see the most of the antagonist point of view from.

With this I can really develop some conflict between conflict with jealousy and a clash of sub-cultures. It’s pretty simple but I like it, the story will probably rotate between the two characters point of view

Also if I'm cluttering the thread I'll make my own

Post edited on 28th Nov 2011, 10:49pm
>> No. 1699 [Edit]
>>1698
What medium is this for? No offense, but I couldn't see it taking off an anything anime related. Sounds like the basis for a novel or maaaaybe a manga.
>> No. 1700 [Edit]
>>1699

>>1589
>>1627

Meant to link them

But yeah VN
>> No. 1701 [Edit]
>>1700
Oh, silly me. I didn't realize your last post was a continuation of the other two. Disregard my comment!
>> No. 1702 [Edit]
>>1698
Glad to see you've kept this up. I like where it's going so far, keep it up!
>> No. 1707 [Edit]
Report in Tohnos. What are your writing plans for December? College Tohnos should have a winter break to get some things done.
>> No. 1711 [Edit]
File 132322006547.jpg - (39.16KB , 208x246 , 1323195399923.jpg )
1711
>>1696
I have to say the second one sounds more like wish fulfillment. The first might make a good short story.
>> No. 1719 [Edit]
I've got an idea. This is a vague sketch, but here goes:

MC's charismatic, popular brother disappears. MC inherits his grand airship. Has to go on a journey into another kind of alternate reality that is inhabited by malevolent and neutral beings (no good things, essentially) that he can shift in between. Throw in some political intrigue in a floating mega-city. Based all around Greek mythology.
>> No. 1724 [Edit]
>>1719
Well it certainly sounds unique at least. Let's get some questions going...

So in contrast to this brother the MC is shy and reserved? How does he learn to fly the ship? Is one of the crew members going to have to do it for them? Will they be an important character? He's going on the journey to find his brother, right? If the brother is in the other reality then how did he get there without the ship?
>> No. 1736 [Edit]
I've been writing a story. It's the journal of a explorer. since every corner of this planet has already been explored, he decides to go into the "final frontier", his own mind. every night he travels into a different world in his dreams, and when he wakes up he writes down the details of the world he just discovered. he gives it a name, describes it's climate, the people or creatures who live there, their religion, etc. lucid dreaming is difficult, and initially his trips are very short and murky, so he begins experimenting and trying to find ways to make them clearer, more detailed and longer (soft alarm clocks, different sleeping poses and room temperatures, headphones, reality checks, doses of melatonin, etc) and looking for advice in imageboards but none of these give him the results he want, and he begins to feel that the worlds he is visiting are too bland and fake, and he comes to the conclusion that most if not all of the worlds he has visited are probably just derivatives of his own memories. he begins searching for the ideal, perfect dreamworld to live in so that he can place himself in a pharmacological coma and escape his NEET life. after many months of searching he realizes it probably doesn't really exist, and that he must build it himself. of course, it's not easy, because he doesn't have any original materials, and he doesn't want to live in a world that derives from his own experiences. and even if he did, there is no way he could come up with a world that he will not get tired of after years of sleeping.
he tries interrogating his subconscious to find a solution. although the dreamer already possesses all of the subconscious' knowledge, he or she may not be aware of all of it, and can miss important clues. so, subconscious comes up with an idea- a journey to the place where memories become dreamworlds.

subconscious shows the dreamer that he has been wrong all along. there are no "imperfect" and "perfect" dreams, only pleasant and non pleasant dreams, and that the dreams that have given him the most pleasure were the non lucid ones. thus, memories become original, fresh material in his eyes, and as long as he never performs a reality check, he will always have pleasure in any self contained fantasy world. the dreamer isn't satisfied with this answer, and decides to keep looking for the perfect world
>> No. 1737 [Edit]
MC is a guy named 'Adam Smith Above', (Above is pronounced with 3 syllables). When anyone fills out a form and writes their address "as above" it might be sent to this guy; "A S Above". He has a wacky sidekick with the initials "RTS". Together they have become wealthy by opening other peoples mail and using it in various ways, e.g. identity theft. One day they come face to face with a rival: Allison Sandra Above. They engage in a battle fought via the postal system with explosive results.
>> No. 1738 [Edit]
>>1737
I think names are irrelevant in the postal system.
I've sent and revived packages in the mail with online handles for the names.
and am pretty sure, most any large area would have more than a few people who share the exact same name.
Example; see, The Terminator.
>> No. 1740 [Edit]
>>1738
yeah thats true. my cousin would always send my christmas/birthday presents addressed to some troll name.
maybe instead the main character could live at 123 Fake St.
>> No. 1741 [Edit]
>>1740
better idea.
>> No. 1743 [Edit]
Pure curiosity and nothing more, don't read into it: if somebody was going to come out and announce 'hey guys, I'm gathering a team, we're making a ren'ai VN, one writer per path' how many people would be interested? You can disregard your actual writing skills (and English knowledge for non-native speakers) but you have to be sure you have the motivation to keep going until the very end.

Again, I'm not suggesting I want to start something of this sort or that even somebody else should. Hell, I don't even count myself towards the people willing to write something. It's just something that managed to keep me up at night yesterday.
>> No. 1744 [Edit]
>>1743
Putting everything aside? I would.

I hardly have the skill set to do it, but I would have the motivation. Motivation may come and go, but having a desire to want to do something for people to enjoy is something that has always been with me, I'm just terrible with people, so I've never been able to do more than support them when they are down.
>> No. 1746 [Edit]
Late, late reply. But I just opened the initial parts of the story in wordpad, and remembered this thread.

>>1724
>So in contrast to this brother the MC is shy and reserved?
I figure, not so much, he's just...inferior. It's as if the MC is an even 50% (painfully average, I suppose), but the brother, on the other hand, is the 100%. He's the superior person, he's kind-hearted and a generally affable fellow. Where the brother is the "perfect knight", honorable, chivalrous, the MC has more of an issue of being human before being "perfect", you know?Like...The closest idea I can consider to this concept is the relationship between Naota and his brother in FLCL.

>How does he learn to fly the ship? / Is one of the crew members going to have to do it for them?
Guess I can explain that due to it being common knowledge for those on the ship, you know? The crew members and the MC can both pilot the ship. I'm thinking of making a "pilot" character who's sort of the brother's right-hand man, I guess.

>Will they be an important character?
Depends on if I make the pilot the brother's friend or not, I suppose.

>He's going on the journey to find his brother, right? If the brother is in the other reality then how did he get there without the ship?
Not sure on how I'd explain that. Although I'm imagining in my head, the other reality is basically like a level above (or under) our percieved reality, you know? It's like another layer to this type of reality, and in that reality, there's no real concept of time, so the brother, I figure, could wander through this reality for what seems like a mere hour, but is, in fact, only a few seconds in the real world - Basically, he just sort of phased out of "real reality" and into the other reality, and the story is basically the MC trying to figure out where he could've gone, but ignoring the obvious idea that he's in the very thing that their kingdom/country/city/village/whatever commissioned them to research and explore.

Thanks for bringing these questions up, man. I never really thought about this stuff. Feel like I can really flesh it out.

My only issue is how believable the sub-stories I've got are. I've got this idea for, in the middle of the story, there's sort of an inter-ruler feud between the MC's family (who rules one part of the massive castle/kingdom thingy), and the would-be grand ruler of...whatever it is they are a part of (see, the female heir was named the queen, rather than him being named the king, and he's all hot and bothered about that, as a prideful man would be) - I.e. The latter falls in love with the MC's mother, and she strings him along, seducing him for her own gain (along with the MC's father). Think something like Hamlet in a sense, with Gertrude and Claudius. This incident would serve as a sort of catalyst for the MC's life truly falling apart: his father would die, as would the would-be ruler. I've got the perfect scene in my head for that. Just not sure how the mother would end up. Other than that, I've got a general sketch of the romance between MC and the tsundere knight woman, "defrosting ice queen" and all. These would be folding out as the MC proceeds in the search for his brother, who would fix these issues in the most literal sense if he were present. Basically, the present issues demand that his brother be found.

I don't know, these are just my ramblings.
>> No. 1752 [Edit]
File 132632707181.jpg - (29.13KB , 170x248 , Fujinee%20HS%20version.jpg )
1752
I've spent since last Thursday writing non-stop a Fate fanfiction. I'm not sure if I should be proud of myself for getting something done or ashamed for writing a fanfic.
>> No. 1753 [Edit]
>>1752
Can I read it?
>> No. 1754 [Edit]
>>1752
Depends on quality. If it doesn't butcher the English language, isn't full of bad cliches, and you actually have knowledge of literature, you should share it with us.
>> No. 1755 [Edit]
>>1753
It's on paper and mixed up between drafts of chapters and notes for future chapters. I'll organize it and type it up eventually. I took some time to read up on the word counts for FSN and FZ, which are 800,000 approx. (All 3 routes) and 312,000 approx. (All four books). So I am aiming for 250,000 words at most. It's mostly just for fun, but I do hope to tell a good story.
>> No. 1758 [Edit]
I've always been awful at thinking up titles, so if suggestions could be given for a book I'm writing I'd appreciate it. I had to make up a title on the spot, so the working title now is My Home In the World. That sounds sappy to me, like a book full of moral clichés and childish writing.

It's about Kirk, a newlywed journalist, who gets drafted for WWIII shortly after returning to Germany from America with his wife. Kirk has never been the fighter type, being a bit of an introvert and having no skill at it. He deserts the army to try and return to his wife that he loves dearly. All he wants is to live peacefully with her, continuing to work at his passion for seeing and living where his family has. So long as he can be with his wife, he can be at home.
>> No. 1759 [Edit]
>>1758
Perhaps "No Return"? I don't know the plot well so this is what I could come up with.
Also a journalist being introvert?
>> No. 1761 [Edit]
>>1759
>Psychology: a person predominantly concerned with their own thoughts and feelings rather than with external things
Should I use another word? He does his job out of interest, it's what he enjoys. Cares about the process of finding the details and putting them together into a story for the paper.
>> No. 1764 [Edit]
I've been working on a VN out of boredom for almost a month now, using ONscripter. The first day of the story is almost done, but pretty much everyone who was working with me lost interest... I'm not really surprised because the holidays are over and people have obligations to attend to, but it's still kinda disappointed because I really wanted to finish it.

I think my problem was that the story just wasn't interesting enough. If I posted it here, could you guys critique it? I have some ideas and other stories I'd like to write but I don't want to make the same mistakes again.
>> No. 1765 [Edit]
>>1764
I'd give it a look! As someone that wants to write a VN himself I'd find it interesting and try to give useful feedback.
>> No. 1767 [Edit]
>>1764
I'd give it a read as well.
>> No. 1809 [Edit]
File 13343416428.jpg - (30.79KB , 275x270 , 1332441467533.jpg )
1809
Bumping this, how are your projects going?
>> No. 1897 [Edit]
I've been reading a lot of lovecraft recently for most likely obvious reasons, I've been thinking it might be fun to turn some of his stories directly to VNs to give off an atmospheric feel, and give me some experience with an engine. Might be fun
>> No. 1898 [Edit]
>>1897
Would you make the story branching? It seems like it'd be hard to do, but a lot of VNs are boring if they don't.

Good luck with it if you decide to do it, I'll definitely give it a read! Ren`Py isn't hard to work with; once you've looked at the tutorial and played with it a bit, you shouldn't have any troubles at all.
>> No. 1899 [Edit]
>>1897
You've probably already read it, but if not, go read Saya no Uta. It's the best Lovecraft-esque VN you're gonna get, and it's also a great example of simple story-branching done well. You might want to pick up some tips there if you're going to include branching.
I'm guessing about 60% of VN projects collapse because the devs want, like, one trillion choices and routes in it.
>> No. 1911 [Edit]
>>1899

It would be kind of strange if I didn't read it


I meant more as a straight copy from paper to VN just with added elements to get more people into it. Eerie music and atmospheric would make a lot of it hold meaning easier for the modern folk
>> No. 1922 [Edit]
How many of you would play* a VN made from Ren'py without any actual graphics? I can't draw characters for hell, but I could just take pictures of places and incorporate them as backgrounds. I've been at this story for quite a while and the only thing that's holding me back from finalizing it's "release" is the lack of graphics.

Post edited on 21st Jul 2012, 1:17am
>> No. 1924 [Edit]
>>1922

Why use the VN format then? I'd give it a read I guess.
>> No. 1925 [Edit]
>>1924

Because the story involves multiple choices and actually has a day/time/map interface allowing for variable endings. VNs are the best way, since I'm already used to scripting. I just thought that I'd get better at drawing during the process, but sadly everytime I draw, I feel like it doesn't add up.
>> No. 1926 [Edit]
>>1922
You can always just get some stock sprites from somewhere or some other VN
>> No. 1927 [Edit]
When I first saw this thread around the time of it's creation, I thought to myself I'd get something done for once. But every time I started a project I hit a wall and couldn't finish it. Then I kept starting new projects that I thought would be easier to make - I thought I just had to simplify what I was doing. Then I kept confusing myself and now I have countless unfinished projects that will never be done.

I wish I could finish something. Someday. Somehow.
>> No. 1930 [Edit]
>>1927
There are three things you could do:
- Improve your skills
- Use pre-made content (e.g using stock music, stock sprites, modifying someone else's code)
- Get someone skilled to help you do things
>> No. 1934 [Edit]
Twin siblings Kou and Homuha are the heirs of a powerful vampire family in modern Japan. When Homuha's powers suddenly awaken, she begins sucking the blood of her brother, her personal maid, and even other students at school, and it's up to Kou to stop it! Join him in this wacky high school comedy about family, love, and why you shouldn't sleep naked.

Basically, a shorter story (looking to be 25k to 30k words) that does harem comedies right. There's plenty of stupid humor, ecchi situations, a chuuni fight, and twincest.

A lot of people's ideas on the *chans seem to span continents, or perhaps planets. Me on the other hand, I'm a sucker for harem comedies. Unfortunately, most of them never seem to have the ambition to go anywhere. They're fine with just putting a bunch of moe archetypes in the same room and calling it a day. Just look at Kono Naka ni Hitori, Imouto ga Iru this season. Nothing happens, there's no end in sight, the main character is clueless as ever, and all the girls want his dick for no apparent reason. Other anime just stick a guy in a club (that was perhaps on the edge of being disbanded) with a bunch of moe girls and call it day. That's boring, unless it's Haganai and all the girls are completely retarded and unsociable. But I digress.
>> No. 2029 [Edit]
Damn, you people. I was going to make a thread for writers, but then I found this thread, sitting around for five months without an update. What's going on? How are the projects going?

I'm thinking of writing some stuff, coming up with ideas, etc. Everything I think of is on a huge, epic scale that I couldn't possibly finish without a year of work, so I want to start with a short story. The trouble is that I can't come up with a single fucking idea. I'm a reclusive self-hating fuck and I can't write believable relationships between characters, which is a serious problem. I was thinking of writing some historical fiction, though, since I'm very into history.

If anyone's actively involved in a VN project or knows someone who is, I'd love to hear about it. I need something to do, or else I'm going to die of boredom and depression.
>> No. 2030 [Edit]
>>2029
Whenever I think about ideas for stuff that I might be able to write about, it always ends up about just being a reclusive self-hating fuck. Be happy that you can think of grand-scale plot premises that aren't so closed-minded like mine.

You should jot your ideas down so you don't forget them and then maybe you can start working on more and more details of one of the big ideas now. It would suck to just put it off for a whole year and look back to regret not having started now.
>> No. 2031 [Edit]
>>2029
>The trouble is that I can't come up with a single fucking idea.

If you can't simplify, then just make something generic, even if you know it's shit. Being able to finish a single project will give you the motivation and confidence you need to move on or make something bigger. I'd say a good first step is just fucking around and seeing what you can do, even if you never show it to anyone else.

You're always going to have to start with something bare and shitty, you'll never make something good as a first project. You learn how to make good things by experimenting. To me, it sounds like you're too focused on trying to make something both short and good. Mainly because I have the same problem where I have a hard time simplifying my ideas. Throw away your standards for a moment and just fuck around with archetypes and generic scenarios. It's working pretty well for me.
>> No. 2032 [Edit]
>>2030
>>2031
Thanks for the advice. I know I should be writing any old bullshit just to practice. Maybe something good will grow out of it.

Do you have any ideas you're working on right now? It seems like a lot of this thread is about VN writing, which seems a lot less feasible since you need serious cooperation going with a team, a programmer and an artist, etc. I'd love to work on a VN, but it seems like most of them die in the early stages of development from a lack of interest.
>> No. 2033 [Edit]
>>2029
>I'm a reclusive self-hating fuck and I can't write believable relationships between characters, which is a serious problem

I experience this also. But not all fiction needs to have well developed characters, believe it or not. I'm reading a series called The Remaining, the characterization is really thin but the author includes a lot of military details that make it interesting to read.
>> No. 2034 [Edit]
>>2029

>What's going on? How are the projects going?

Just as planned, I'm procrastinating like there's no tomorrow and haven't written a single line yet. See, I would've written a dozen of books by now if not for the fact that I keep telling myself 'no use starting now, I'll kill myself before I'll manage to finish it either way'. Joke is I've been telling myself that for years.

>If anyone's actively involved in a VN project or knows someone who is, I'd love to hear about it. I need something to do, or else I'm going to die of boredom and depression.

... And if I weren't such a lazy piece of shit I would've at least attempted to gather a team for a generic VN long long ago. I always used tot think that coordinating a project like this is super hard but recently I somehow got involved in a big project (not a VN) and even though it resulted in a failure it gave me lots of confidence in regards to managing 'human resources'.

... Well, no point starting now either way, I'll kill myself before we'll manage to finish it either way...
>> No. 2037 [Edit]
>>2033
I suppose you're right. Good lit doesn't have to be character-driven. Maybe I'm just taking the wrong approach.

>>2034
>... And if I weren't such a lazy piece of shit I would've at least attempted to gather a team for a generic VN long long ago. I always used tot think that coordinating a project like this is super hard but recently I somehow got involved in a big project (not a VN) and even though it resulted in a failure it gave me lots of confidence in regards to managing 'human resources'.

Well, damn. I feel the same way. But there's no day like today to start being productive, right? Tomorrow never comes.

As I said before, I'd be interested in getting involved with any kind of interesting project, whether it's a VN or some sort of collaborative writing thing etc. I'm trying to come up with a few solid ideas myself.
>> No. 2038 [Edit]
File 135965322615.jpg - (43.98KB , 800x600 , corridor2.jpg )
2038
I like all of the ideas here, I hope you finish.

I've got two vns I've been working on.
One about a guy waking up to find everyone's gone, surviving for a bit and dying.
Another is a murder mystery on the first civilian luxury space cruiser.
For the artwork, I'm just drawing crap and taking pictures. Not worried about quality. Can't be, or I'd never finish. There's lots of free-use music out there too.
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