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798 No. 798 [Edit]
What do you think japan and it's culture would be like today if it stayed out of WW2?
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>> No. 799 [Edit]
It would only delay the inevatable, it was a threat to the US, Britain and USSR so it was always going to be taken out at some point.

But assuming it never happened for some reason or that it had just not happened yet. It's really hard to say but I would think it would turn out a lot like China is now. Of course the ideology is different but it's still a strong and authoritative party running an Asian nation. It's still going to have that typical Asiatic brutality and pragmatism(although it would soften over time as it has in China) and it's still going to try it's best to compete in the global market. Although the military will have more say and there will be more of an emphasis on Japanese culture and values.
>> No. 800 [Edit]
>although it would soften over time as it has in China
Except tehnology would be utilized to restrict people in ways never possible before.
>> No. 801 [Edit]
It's heading that way now already. I don't think japan would do anything China is not already doing or planning to do in that regard.
>> No. 802 [Edit]
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Living in a country that "stayed out" of WWII I can say it meant lost decades and being isolated and oblivious from the world. Sometimes a huge defeat is what a country needs to unleash it's potential.
I think Japan would also could had been an isolated country, with their allies defeated and a fucked up regime and ideology, until the US would have taken some interest because anti-communist policies in Asia. So decades lost too.
>> No. 803 [Edit]
If he had stayed out of WW2, WW2 would come for him, it would be another country in the Cold War to be attacked by both USSR and USA, the question would be if Japan would be able to withstand the attacks and maintain it's sovereignty. Japan would probably go full isolationist route.
I sometimes think about what would happen if the coups had succeeded and Japan kept up the war.
>> No. 804 [Edit]
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>I sometimes think about what would happen if the coups had succeeded and Japan kept up the war.

They would be obliterated. German was also a fanatical and determined adversary who fought on until Berlin yet they were in a much better shape to do so than Japan was. They were a better army, they had developed industry to be resistant to air attack and they had better equipment. Even then they died horribly and were very poorly equipped, but they still were able to arm their 'soldiers' with effective anti-tank weapons(which Japan didn't even have in the first place, they tried their best but they struggled against even light tanks) and their industry was robust enough that they were able to produce right up until surrender(Japan had put nowhere near so much effort into fortifying that).

If the allies did have to set foot in Japan they would find themselves fighting a third rate army when it was at it's best which would rapidly deteriorate into a rabble of bamboo armed school girls, it would be a one sided slaughter. I doubt even the most fanatical leader would have the stomach to continue it for long. Not to mention the fact that the Soviets would probably get involved as well(that could be interesting, it could mean a communist Hokkaido state).
>> No. 805 [Edit]
Not inevitable. After the First World War the next war most likely to break out was between USA and UK, with Japan allied to UK.
>> No. 806 [Edit]
It's true that they were allied early on and at that point it was a possibility but the geo political situation back then was vastly different to what it was post WW2 or even in 1937.
>> No. 807 [Edit]
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After the war Japan aligned with NATO powers so I imagine if it didn't participate in ww2 it wouldn't receive the heavy investment from the west which happened after ww2. Its economic development wouldn't be as great, but it wouldnt be as crippled as per china because communism would be unlikely to take hold in japan (it usually only hits poor countries). I imagine they would be similar to germany in terms of economy.

The culture of japan in 2020 would be very backwards and traditional because confucianism/'yamato damashii' are both forces of extreme conservatism and there would be no american influence on culture.
>> No. 808 [Edit]
Regardless of its participation in ww2 in any camp, it would have been approached by the west as a foothold to asia,just like S.Korea against the soviet union/china.Even if they had not been approached by any western country at all they still would have a similar culture because they were hellbent at copying the west and its achievements in industrialization and technology.How succesful they would have been without the "help" of the west is debatable however and if the west hadnt approached them the soviet union would certainly have and in that case its culture would have been devastated.Just look at the contrast of the koreas.Literally the same people with the same history,yet different as day and night.
communism arose in poor coountries only when it started.After that with propaganda and the backing of the soviet union even more advanced countries could fell for it and it was the intervention of the allies that prevented it.I am fairly sure that with the right moves japan could easily fell on the other camp.
At any rate it was impossible for them to remain out of the war.They knew very well that without alliance with other powers and rapid expansion for resources they would have been invaded by someone else.In a strange turn of events i think the invasion of the west has actually helped more japan to retain its unique identity.
>> No. 809 [Edit]
Another question ,however, is how "japanese" are the media and cultural output that we all love and enjoy.For example the Jidaigeki cinema.Even thought western movies copied ideas that the japs came up with first,the whole ordeal is ,inherently, western:Action movies portraying a romanticized past.And the same can be said for animus-under no circumstances the japs discovered cel animation-it just got realy big there for a huge variety of reasons.What is worth discussing however is to what extent the underlying narratives and ideas are more japanese than western.Definately the japs treat ideas differently than the west but through the means coming from the west.I think that if somehow japan had remained absent from ww2 anime and manga whould never have existed-or at the very best they would have been at the level of animation/comics of europe: absolute trash.Because i believe that if they werent affected by the west so much their culltural output would have opted for different ways of expression.And if they hadnt such armies of robots -coming from the merge of asian traditionalism and western capitalism-otaku media would never catch traction and become popular.Who would buy all the pervy nukige for pc-98?nobody thats who.Who would watch all that pervy OVAs with more tit-slips that dialogue lines?nobody
Just like the DOS games library is trash because its traget audience was trash.Just like the western animation of the 90's is trash because its explicitely for kids.
So to sum it all up,anime is 100% American.
>> No. 810 [Edit]
>So to sum it all up,anime is 100% American
I don't see how you got to that conclusion.
>> No. 811 [Edit]
America isn't the only influencer on Japan.
Japan had been accepting, albiet limited, European influence since they first met them. There's no special circumstance that requires it has to be America that 'influences' Japan.

>it wouldn't receive the heavy investment from the west which happened after ww2
THAT only happened because the USA failed in their China campiagne to back the Kuomintang against the Communists.
The USA had backed the KMT against Japan as well (hence the USA embargoing Japan for their invasion of China). Their entire motive was to support the KMT, win China and then that would give the USA a 'ally' in the East.

Since the KMT utterly failed, the USA had to get SOMETHING out of Asia, only THEN did they economically support Japan. If they cared for Japan at all to begin with, they would not have let the post-war starvation happen at all (Germany couldn't be helped since they were occupied by the Soviet Union).
Just look at the timing.
>> No. 812 [Edit]
>There's no special circumstance that requires it has to be America that 'influences' Japan.
Economics. I don't mean finanical aid, I mean the approach. W. Edwards Deming, an American, was instrumental in creating their work to death office culture which made their popculture possible.
>> No. 813 [Edit]
>>34218 Work in Japan
How does increasing quality ends up reducing expenses?That doesnt make any sense.Is there something that im missing?
>> No. 814 [Edit]
Japan had 'pop'culture before America existed.
Pop for it's time, obviously.
That aside, again, there's no reason that could not have come from the Europeans instead. Though, the Europeans have a laxer view on work-life, which would, in hind-sight, have prevented the current work culture.
Because Japanese were always hard working, maybe just not long, American-style working. Mix the two and you get long, hard work (whereas Americans just avoid the hard part).

1950, very interesting.
The war ended in 1945, the Chinese Civil War ended (with the US backed KMT losing) in 1949 and, as far as I can see, America started actually trying to help Japan in 1950.

'The product must match the market. The product quality must be adapted to that market. If product quality is too high, or too low, it w ill not be right. If product quality is too good, the price is very high, and only a quite limited group of people can afford to purchase it'.
Ahah, leave it to Americans to extol the 'virtues' of mediocrity.
>> No. 815 [Edit]
The Marshall plan itself was from 1948, it didn't happen instantly either.

Post edited on 9th Mar 2020, 4:50pm
>> No. 816 [Edit]
>their work to death office culture which made their popculture possible.
Why do you think that? There's plenty of countries with shit-tier work conditions with many endless hours and no such a culture.
>> No. 817 [Edit]
I don't want to imagine.
Their castration in WW2 is what gave us life.
>> No. 818 [Edit]
Granted (though they gave more to China: 'American aid included substantial amounts of mostly surplus military supplies, and loans were made to the KMT.[51] Within less than two years after the Sino-Japanese War, the KMT had received $4.43 billion from the US—most of which was military aid.')

But America already started viewing Germans as an ally pretty much as soon as the war ended.
That was not the case for Japan, who was still the 'enemy' until 1949 (when KMT lost China).

'It was perfectly clear to us that if we told the Japanese to lay down their arms immediately and march to the seaboard, the entire country would be taken over by the Communists. We therefore had to take the unusual step of using the enemy as a garrison until we could airlift Chinese National troops to South China and send Marines to guard the seaports'
- Harry Truman.
>> No. 819 [Edit]
Ahh.... Your quote actually contradicts what you say...

Also Germany wasn't viewed as an ally right after the war. They were not even allowed an army again until 1955.
>> No. 820 [Edit]
>Your quote actually contradicts what you say
Care to prove that? You can't just expect me to believe you.

>Also Germany wasn't viewed as an ally right after the war.
True, my interpretation was a bit off. The Americans viewed Germans as more 'human' than the Japanese during the war. Which, I daresay, has lingering effects to this very day.
Hence torturing and taking body parts of soldiers frequently happened to Japanese soldiers and not German soldiers (by Americans at least).

'But the Japanese wasn't dead. He had been wounded severely in the back and couldn't move his arms; otherwise he would have resisted to his last breath. The Japanese's mouth glowed with huge gold-crowned teeth, and his captor wanted them. He put the point of his kabar on the base of a tooth and hit the handle with the palm of his hand. Because the Japanese was kicking his feet and thrashing about, the knife point glanced off the tooth and sank deeply into the victim's mouth. The Marine cursed him and with a slash cut his cheeks open to each ear. He put his foot on the sufferer's lower jaw and tried again. Blood poured out of the soldier's mouth. He made a gurgling noise and thrashed wildly. I shouted, “Put the man out of his misery.” All I got for an answer was a cussing out. Another Marine ran up, put a bullet in the enemy soldier's brain, and ended his agony. The scavenger grumbled and continued extracting his prizes undisturbed.'

'Lindbergh also noted in his diary his experiences from an air base in New Guinea, where according to him the troops killed the remaining Japanese stragglers "as a sort of hobby" and often used their leg-bones to carve utilities'.
>> No. 821 [Edit]
>Care to prove that? You can't just expect me to believe you.

It's not a matter of proving, your argument is that Japan was not viewed to have any use as an ally until 1949 and to prove it you are using a quote of an American president saying he was making use of them as soon as the war ended. Yet you don't see the contradiction?

American soldiers being animals is irrelevant. Particularly in geopolitics. I'm frankly disappoint that you even brought it up. Geopolitics doesn't care if nation A thinks nation B is inferior, if nation B has a strategic use then nation A will make use of it. Look at Hitler, his pre-war rhetoric on China and Japan was let's just say, less than flattering(in his second book he says the Chinese are of such a low quality that regardless of how many there are they could never become a superpower, he also wanted to ally with Britain to stop the Japanese becoming a naval/colonial power, because if he destroyed Britain that would leave a vacuum Japan could fill). Yet even with that Germany was close to China early on and then allied to Japan. You could even say that Americans viewing others as subhuman would encourage them to give them aid, they would see it as their duty to civilise them.
>> No. 822 [Edit]
Just a heads up, I'll be moving this thread to /tat/. Putting this out there since posts on that board are hidden and people might think this was deleted.
>> No. 823 [Edit]
>and to prove it you are using a quote of an American president saying he was making use of them as soon as the war ended
It wasn't optional. You couldn't say no.
That's not the actions somebody who views you as a 'ally'.
>> No. 824 [Edit]
>You could even say that Americans viewing others as subhuman would encourage them to give them aid, they would see it as their duty to civilise them.
What a fucking joke. A nation less than 500 years old giving lectures on civilisation to nations over 1000 years old.
>> No. 825 [Edit]
>What a fucking joke. A nation less than 500 years old giving lectures on civilisation to nations over 1000 years old.
Age is irrelevant; that country was that of any other modern state since it is an offshoot of an existing European power. You're just grasping at straws.
>> No. 968 [Edit]
Had Japan stayed out of WW2, the conversion of its people to Catholicism that was occurring in Hiroshima and Nagasaki (you know, the two cities that were ordered to be nuked, the success of which contributed to President Truman's promotion to the highest rank in Freemasonry) would have been undeterred. Perhaps Catholicism would have spread out of those towns and even further to more parts of the country.
Anyway, that is my prediction: had Japan stayed out, it would have been more Catholic in the end.
>> No. 969 [Edit]
People seem to forget that Japan was culturally genociding the Koreans and really killing others at the time.
>> No. 1004 [Edit]
That's simply impossible since the state ideology of Imperial Japan, State-Shinto, was religious in nature. Japan staying out the war or winning the war would have meant a strengthening of its native religious traditions (Shinto) and a weakening of all foreign doctrines, including Buddhism, which wass already happening prior to the war.
That and the fact that Christianity had already been present in Japan for centuries and never managed to spread outside of these obscure little communities.
>> No. 1005 [Edit]
Korean culture is shit so that's okay.
Chinese killed more of each other during their civil war than Japan did in their war against them.
>> No. 1006 [Edit]
>Age is irrelevant
'They cannot believe that there are cultural values that are the result of centuries of historical development, which cannot simply be bought. It was no bad joke when, after the war, they bought the ruins of German castles and moved them stone by stone to the U.S.A. They really thought that they had purchased a piece of national history embodied in stone, and were naive enough to think that mocking laughter from Europe was respect for the wealth that enabled them to buy what their own tradition and culture lacked'.

'Although we affirm the technical achievements of our age, we see behind them an intellectual strength that grows from the roots of our people. Machines are a means to an end, not an end in themselves. As much as we appreciate the achievements of modern civilization and use them to improve life, we know that they are not the sole meaning of life. There are national values that are the result of centuries of history and tradition. They cannot be purchased, only built by the labor of generations'.
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