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33625 No. 33625 [Edit]
From games, comics, and cartoons, since the late 90s, westerns from America to Europe(especially France for some reason) have attempted to create "anime-like" media. You remember some of these: rwby, totally spies, avatar, teen titans, code lyoko, to name a few. Most of these are made to capitalize on a dying trend, but that's besides the point. These try to copy something more than the artstyle(which is usually a failure). There's some kind of character to otaku media that they're trying to replicate.

Aside from anime largly representing adult-oreiented animation that isn't primarily comedic, there's something else to it, some dynamic. Most people write these "knockoffs" off as shit and that's it, but I want to know, if I were to try to make something with that unique "spirit" to it, wouldn't it just come out the same? Could a westerner capture whatever that thing is so it feels the same?

There's a couple western porn artists which do a really good job, but that's as close as I can think of
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>> No. 33626 [Edit]
I don't think it's true that all western attempts in the animated medium have tried to copy off of Japanese anime. If you look at shows in the period that I consider the "golden" era of western animation, late 90s-early 2000s, you have successful shows like Animanaics that can stand by themselves and are quite uniquely "western". Unfortunately with that era having passed, most "animated" cartoons in the West aren't even animated by hand anymore.

If you are referring to more recent times, then I'd be inclined to agree that there's a general rush to try to profit off of the anime fanbase, especially given things such as "netflix" produced anime.

>Could a westerner capture whatever that thing is so it feels the same?
I'm sure there are/have been individuals in the west that have made doujin works akin to quality ones you'd find on niconico. Part of the issue might be that there isn't really a tradition of doujin circles in the west which makes undertaking larger projects difficult. More generally there's an aversion to things that aren't guaranteed to generate guaranteed profit, and with a populace as diverse as the US that means that only conventional, "safe" works are ever produced.
>> No. 33630 [Edit]
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33630
>>33626
>I don't think it's true that all western attempts in the animated medium have tried to copy off of Japanese anime.
I wasn't implying that. This thread is more about why western attempts at copying Japanese media specifically fail more often than not, at least in feeling like what they're based on.
>late 90s-early 2000s
I'm not inclined to agree with this. Rocko's Modern Life and that kind of thing, is completely unwatchable to me. I think the "golden age" of animation in the west was the 1910s-1920s, before things were quite so limited. Everything after the great depression has been marred by cultural perceptions that came about from Hanna-Barbera, Fleischer Studios, and the like. Good things eventually came from Disney, but primarily not in the west. That's a different topic though.
>most "animated" cartoons in the West aren't even animated by hand anymore.
I'm assuming you don't mean physical cells as by hand, right?
>I'm sure there are/have been individuals in the west that have made doujin works akin to quality ones you'd find on niconico.
Try naming a few. I know about that faggot, Bleedman. I like jcm-2(think he's south american), but he just makes porn and his output isn't that high.
>an aversion to things that aren't guaranteed to generate guaranteed profit
Most doujin circles make little money, yet they still produce and go to comiket regardless. I think a difference in passion is part of it.
>> No. 33631 [Edit]
>>33626
>If you look at shows in the period that I consider the "golden" era of western animation, late 90s-early 2000s, you have successful shows like Animanaics that can stand by themselves and are quite uniquely "western".
Ironically, animated by TMS.
>> No. 33632 [Edit]
>>33631
>alongside animation works for western animation such as Animaniacs, Batman: The Animated Series, DuckTales, Spider-Man: The Animated Series, Tiny Toon Adventures (Wikipedia)
I guess that shouldn't be too surprising.
>> No. 33634 [Edit]
Avatar was good and probably the most anime like thing the west has produced, but yes, this is only one thing and I am not sure that it was actually trying to be anime like.

It's not just animation but in art as well, westerners seem to love to attempt to make something in an anime style but completely butcher it in the process, I think it's largely because they don't actually understand the Japanese mindset or why anime is good in the first place. That and it could also be because of the culture around anime in the west vs the East, in the West most people who are into it are losers and there isn't really an industry for it, so even if a smart, well adjusted lad decides he would like to make anime he really has nowhere to go so he will most likely do something else. Compare that with Japan where anime is much more widespread and where there is an industry for young people to work towards.
>> No. 33635 [Edit]
>>33632
There really aren't any American studios producing 2D animation. They just send their storyboards to Koreans, or worse, Canadians. That perceived golden age exists almost entirely because that was when they would send them to Japanese studios, which isn't common practice anymore (though you get some rare cases).
>> No. 33637 [Edit]
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33637
>>33634
Avatar was alright. The way it's perceived in Japan is pretty interesting. The reception is got was very luke warm during its airing and they got some d-listers to do the dub. The ratings were so low, there was a couple year gap between the 2nd and 3rd season dubs and all the VAs were replaced. Some people speculate it's because Japan is kind of bad the guy in the show, others say Japanese people wouldn't like characters that are supposed to be Asiatic "acting white", and the third theory is because it's too similar to their anime, so they didn't find it interesting. Not sure which is true.
>I think it's largely because they don't actually understand the Japanese mindset or why anime is good in the first place.
How would you describe this mindset? I'd say animation is all about freedom and passion. You make a character with big tits because you like big tits. You make a cute character because you like cute things. You make a good story because you like good stories. That might be wrong, but it's my best guess.
>>33631
>>33632
Wow, that's kind of embarrassing. Some 90's obsessed people bring these shows up whenever anime is compared to western animation.
>> No. 33657 [Edit]
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33657
>>33625
Even if they could completely replicate an 'anime-esque' artstyle, (A term I find stupid, since anime in Japan can have multiple art styles, but I can see where they are coming from with a lot of anime characters having more realistic features, big eyes, and exaggerated gestures.) they could never replicate the total "atmosphere" of it in a sense.

To elaborate, I find that many westerners who watch anime have their complaints about a lot of things dealing with Japanese culture, particularly about things such as fanservice, lolicons, or just young girls in general, and even things that they don't politically/socially agree with (for example: the usual trope of a funny weird homosexual)

Westerners always complain about these things, and think Japan should incorporate their standards into their media. 'I wish anime didn't have so much fanservice', 'I wish anime was more serious', 'Japan needs to stop this' etc.,etc.,etc.

Normalfags only think anime is just pretty, cool, action-packed cartoons from Japan, and cannot perceive the culture behind it. While they may be just cartoons, there IS a culture behind it that many people need to understand.

For example, what OP said was false. Anime is not largely adult-oriented material. Maybe some manga are, maybe VN's and H-games, but not anime. A lot of 'adult' anime that air are actually pandered towards teenagers and young adults. It's not as serious or as thought-provoking as many say it is. On the other hand, Slice of Life/some Shoujo like Pretty Cure, are watched by an older male audience. While there are exceptions to every rule, this is generally how it is. Westerners don't seem to understand this.

A lot of western-produced 'anime-like' animations/games/comics put in a lot of random mundane troupes that seem to be an exaggeration of your typical, run of the mill SOL. The tsundere character, the "onniii-chan", the 'waifu', etc. etc. You know, typical garbage that gets pandered to ironic weebs. It can never truly encompass the spirit of Japan, especially since westerns inject their own flavor into anyways. That's why it's easy to tell when something is made by westerners or Worst Koreans, as compared to the Japanese.

TL;DR: Gaijin will never encompass the true Japanese experience of anime, especially Westerners, unless they know Japanese and are very in-twinned with the otaku culture. I would rather watch something 'anime-esque' made from guys on an imageboard than anywhere else, since lots of people who browse imageboards are more familiar with these types of things. Why do you think we all hate 'OEL' visual novels with the exception of a very select few such as Goebells-Chan and Katawa-Shoujo?
>> No. 33659 [Edit]
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33659
>>33657
>Anime is not largely adult-oriented material.
OP, here. What I meant wasn't that anime is exclusively serious and targeted towards mature audiences. What I meant was that on a world-wide scale, if you were to think, "what serious animation is out there", something anime would probably be one of the first things that comes to mind. Out of all of the animation in the world, something with more serious story telling is very likely to be an anime.
>Goebells-Chan
I've never heard of it, and from what I can see, I have no clue why anybody would like this except the average person who goes on 4chan or whatever, and they're very far from in-twinned with the otaku culture.
>> No. 33661 [Edit]
>>33659
Sorry for the misinterpretation of your statement. I don't have too much experience with other medias, but yes, compared to American cartoons, even aimed at adults, anime is a much more serious medium.

And yeah, Goepples-chan wasn't the best example to put in things relating to otaku culture, however, the comedic scenes are actually reminiscent of those in visual novels and the team that worked on it is actually Japanese. I appreciated the humor and the perspective of it, despite the fact that it went with the common [insert]-tan theme and was pandered to westerners.

Also goes to show that there are so few good EOL VN's, I had to bring that one up.
>> No. 33662 [Edit]
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33662
>>33661
>there are so few good EOL VN's
"Games" like Heavy Rain, Telltale stuff and even that Life is Strange shit basically are EOL VNs, they just aren't packaged as such. The gimmick of these is basically "hey, it's an electronic, slightly interactive medium of story telling. That's never been done before! Games are art now, see?". Except visual novels were doing it 20+ years before.
>> No. 33663 [Edit]
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33663
>>33662
I feel like those take after movies, not novels. You don't read much in them, or at all. While it is similar in the sense that the focus is entirely on storytelling, the method is too different for me to see them as comparable.
>> No. 33664 [Edit]
>>33663
There's a few "fully-animated" VNs.

I feel like what they were wrongly taking credit for something broader than movie based games. They didn't so much as acknowledge the existence of visual novels, which I guess is a good thing.

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