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File 154867410195.jpg - (110.56KB , 847x1075 , e27e0cc269eaf0ce8fea77a010037f708e31e243.jpg )
31977 No. 31977 [Edit]
I'm curious what you think of the whole subbing situation nowadays? I know fansubbing is pretty much dead but some botched translation has brought back the scene (GJM is the most prominent one coming to mind at the moment) to an extent. This was the first time in a while I saw drama about localized subs (I'm not gonna bother going into it, it was dumb) and the subber justified it by calling people complaining weebs and a whole shitshow about it. (shitflinging about nationality and politics, standard dumb flame war shit). I talked to someone who speaks Japanese and apparent Horriblesubs is fine for what they are, and if that's to be believed, I appreciate them for bypassing all the dumb "artistic" shit and TL notes, for forgoing all the drama involving subtitles and generally being good enough. I just realized though, most anime viewers are basically taking the meaning of the media with someone else's word. I wonder how often translators are deceptive and "liberally" interpret things, which eventually becomes direct influence over what the characters are saying or straight up guesses for whatever reason. I imagine people with no connection to Japan besides being wapanese wouldn't be able to speak it enough to even tell.
I'm quite curious to learn Japanese now and see how much changes.
What do you think?
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>> No. 31978 [Edit]
I still use Horrible subs. It has problems but they tend to be minor vis-vis other sub groups. Horrible subs will sometimes use words like normie and sometimes use lower level swear words like sh*t and bitch where they should not be, there are also some Americanisms but usually not extreme. It's bad enough that I sometimes want to find new subs but every time I try I find the subs I end up getting are far worse with more swearing, more Americanisms and often having a completely different emotional tone than the character should be using. Things bother me with Horrible subs but it's usually once or twice a cour of a show, less even.
>> No. 31979 [Edit]
They just rip the "official" licensed subtitles on autopilot. As such, the quality varies - most anime streaming/publishing companies will subcontract subtitles to a variety of translators who vary in style, translation/localization attitudes, and quality. Also, keep in mind they have to stick to a weekly schedule - and can't just fall behind like a fansubbing group in case of difficulties.
Ultimately, you lose some linguistic and cultural nuance. The translation/localization debate is essentially about what is more important: conveying the raw words of the author, even if the context is lost on the audience; or conveying the meaning/intent of the author with a more approachable (to a Westerner) context, even if it risks becoming further away from the actual meaning/intent or - again - losing that nuance.
>> No. 31980 [Edit]
I’m still not sure what Americanism means in subbing, like dropping honorifics, using western phrases? I seriously doubt it’s all Americans doing the subbing, and besides Commie that does it to troll I don’t think it’s intentional.
(Speaking of trolling, I’ve noticed people on nyaa will throw a hissyfit if the description contains anything related to the US, there was a recent show that didn’t get licensed and in one episode the description contained imperial measurements, which people were upset about. The episode contained no actual measurements and metric was used earlier in the series. That’s probably what I get for reading comments on a public tracker though, and one used by retards mostly at that.) But yeah that was my point, HS causes the least issues while watching,
I’m aware they rip pro subs, but the ripping bypasses most of the problems fansubs have, and the people are paid to do it. They’re not just some loser doing it for asspats.
>> No. 31981 [Edit]
Using American colloquialisms and the general casual language they use which often goes completely against the characters they are having say it.

It's probably not all Americans subbing it but American culture has spread quite far and many people either use it in day to day life or will sub it that way because they know many others do. If they are from a non English background there is a good chance they learned English from American media as well.
>> No. 31982 [Edit]
English subtitles, and the Anglosphere in general, tend to assume American culture - to the point of the UK Blu-Ray release of Kiniro Mosaic using American English. I don't agree that's the case with non-English subtitles, however, unless they're translated from English - which happens a bit more often than it should, even in the "licensed" world.
>> No. 31983 [Edit]
I think the message here is simple: learn japanese
>> No. 31984 [Edit]
This is vaguely related but maybe not really.
Fansubbing for western films is still fairly active in my country despite the availability of rips. I try to watch English-language movies without subs but I still need them occasionally.
Bad amateur translations are sometimes infuriating, sometimes hilarious but I have a degree of understanding for this.
However even commercial, professional releases are full of baffling mistakes. To me that's unforgivable.
When dialogue includes actual technical or scientific terms half the time translations will either attempt to omit them completely or end up full of botched guesswork.
Sometimes even simple stuff gets confused. Several times I've noticed a word as widely used as "chopper" (as in helicopter) awkwardly translated to things meaning "shredder" or "meat cleaver," turning unremarkable lines into jarring non-sequiturs.
How can something this obvious get through quality control? Even if everyone involved was clueless and confused about "choppers" a one minute internet search would be enough to fix that.

Another example is from some book. You know it's bad if even without access to the original text you can deduce what the author meant despite the translator's incompetence.
In a passage about precision shooting there was some statement about bullets and matches (as in the thingies used to start fires) that made no sense to me.
I read the sentence again and realized the translator must have encountered the term "match grade ammunition" for the first time. Instead of looking it up he decided to crudely invent some bullshit on the spot.
Book was crap, I didn't even finish it. But somehow the translator's deliberate ignorance annoyed me more than bad literature.

It makes me angry because motherfuckers get PAID for this shit and get to call themselves professionals.

I'll have to do this eventually, seems like the only sure solution.
>> No. 31985 [Edit]
You know it's funny you mention this because I was watching the OVAs for Eromanga Sensei recently, and I noticed the subs for the first episode were just awful. It didn't take away from the story and you could figure out what they were saying, but the subtitles had awful grammar and were borderline engrish. I'm not sure if this was a fansub or someone from a major company fucked up, but either way it was pretty bad and it's interesting to see I'm not the only one experiencing this.
>> No. 31986 [Edit]
That's awful. What language are they translating too?
>> No. 31987 [Edit]
Considering it’s an OVA probably some fansubber. I’ve noticed a decent standard for pro subs in the last decade or so but it’s been slipping recently.
>> No. 31988 [Edit]
Lately I've found "professional" subs to be noticably worse than their hobbyist counterparts. Absolutely none of them have ever heard of typesetting and they obviously don't check for typos.
>> No. 31989 [Edit]
File 154873140826.gif - (1.47MB , 480x270 , tsundereelf.gif )
It was by fansub group and I think English wasn't their native language. Other groups put out better translations in following days.
>> No. 31990 [Edit]
I find it extremely sad to see what has become of subs these days. I remember a time when sub groups were run by idiots who fought over the same series giving up 8 English groups subbing shit like Toradora at the same time, but ignoring stuff that has gone unsubbed for ages. It was annoying, but I'd much rather go back to that. I used to hate horrible subs and CR, in fact I still do hate CR, but I've been forced to suck it up and deal. I watch almost everything now using horrible subs because what other option is there? precure and similar shows being the only things I don't watch via horrible subs due to them not being on CR to rip from. I'm glad to see at least some groups are trying to keep fansubs alive, CR'd crap has been pretty bad lately.

>I wonder how often translators are deceptive and "liberally" interpret things
This seems to happen more with dubs than subs. Maybe because people are less likely to notice? I dunno.
>> No. 31991 [Edit]
Fansubbers are retarded and fucked with the shows too much back in the day (TL notes, creative subtitles, etc) , and were often very slow. They also often were very retarded people, and I don’t want to watch a retard’s subtitles, especially if they scream “WEEB!!!!!1” when you complain about dropping honorifics. I really think ripping professional subs improved anime a lot.
I do appreciate people who fansub older anime, though. Not a lot of people see them but the people who watch them and are subbing are usually very passionate about it.
>> No. 31992 [Edit]
>professional subtitles
Anon... you're aware that a sizeable portion of them is (or at least was) made by ex-fansubbers and often following similar principles, right?
>> No. 31993 [Edit]
I'm sure that's something we all know. By "professional" (what I would rather call sellouts) I'm sure that anon means people who are paid to sub with deadlines and scripts to work with along with 'some' accountability for their actions.
>> No. 31994 [Edit]
What's wrong with being paid for your work?
>> No. 31995 [Edit]
Nothing in itself, but it depends on who's writing the checks. In this case it's the company that killed fan subs in the first place.
>> No. 31996 [Edit]
I don't think they're guilty of "killing fan subs", even if their actions led to it. It's more that "fan subs" could not compete.
>> No. 31997 [Edit]
I see an interesting comparison towards fansubbing and open-source software, it’s kinda hard to justify not being paid for your software if you can be, unless you just want to do it as a hobby or rely on benefactors like GNU.
>> No. 31998 [Edit]
From English to a certain slavic language.
>> No. 31999 [Edit]
And even open-source software is increasingly trying to find a way to monetize their work. Fansubbing, being tolerated in no small part thanks to the non-profit, within-fandom angle, can't really do that.
>> No. 32000 [Edit]
I don't see an issue with open-source software seeking funds so long as the software still remains open source.
>> No. 32001 [Edit]
Sure. Except that model is also running out. Look at a lot of server software which now follow a "open core + proprietary enterprise add-ons" path.
>> No. 32002 [Edit]
You guys act like fansubbers all worked for free. You think they never took donations?
>> No. 32003 [Edit]
Taking donations and having it be your job is very different, hence the software comparison
>> No. 32005 [Edit]
I don't think it's nearly as different as you think. From Street performers to e-celebrities plenty of people make a living off donations and would likely call it their job. Where do you draw the line exactly? Having a wage? Would you then say people who make a living off commission don't have a real job just as they don't have a fixed income? What about people who need tips(which are practically donations) to make ends meet? If it's about having a boss then what of people who are self employed? How about people who get salaries but work for volunteer agencies funded by donations? Where do they all fit in? Do people who work for the red cross not have jobs? Or is it about the of money they make? What if someone makes more from donations than they would at a part time job, but less than a full time job? What then?
>> No. 32006 [Edit]
Recent trend, and only the top 1% has enough money to survive off it.
>Where do you draw the line exactly?
I'd argue "being able to survive based off those donations exclusively". That's the line at which people begin being comfortable actually treating their hobby work as a full-time thing.
>What if someone makes more from donations than they would at a part time job, but less than a full time job? What then?
Depends on how much they need to survive. Some people then get a second part-time job, which eats less time away from their hobby project than a full-time job would, but more than being able to work on it exclusively.
Also, most profitable free software relies on corporate sponsorships, support licenses, paid "enterprise" features, and occasionally high-value donations more than individual users pitching in $1 each - as I said, only the top 1% ever get to that level, but in the software world there's a lot going on in the backend that most users might not even be aware of.
>> No. 32007 [Edit]
>I talked to someone who speaks Japanese and apparent Horriblesubs is fine for what they are
That's how I feel as well. Whenever you see an out of context pun in English its because there was a pun that made sense in Japanese and the translators don't care enough to make one fit. A little bit will always be lost in translation but horrible subs are doing a consistently serviceable job tot he point anyone who cares enough to complain should just learn Japanese. I don't say this to be condescending I just think something will always be lost in translation and whether that is 9% or 10% isn't worth obsessing over if you don't care to enough to prevent losing anything in translation by never requiring a translation in the first place.
>> No. 32008 [Edit]
> fine for what they are
They don't translate OP/ED. That alone makes them shit.
>> No. 32009 [Edit]
I'd assume that translating song lyrics is a bit trickier than dialogue though (although it's a pity there are some obscure anime for which I haven't found a good OP/ED translation)
>> No. 32010 [Edit]
I'd assume lyrics for songs are by far easier to acquire than full episode scripts.
>> No. 32011 [Edit]
The issue is licensing! Japanese music companies charge a fortune for anything they can and limit contracts as much as possible. In fact, the license for using a song's lyrics is separate from the license for using the song itself - and TV anime usually only comes with the latter. Western licensors, as such, don't bother acquiring lyrics rights because they don't really see a business reason to.
>> No. 32015 [Edit]
The reasons why CR doesn't translate opening and ending themes does not change the fact they don't translate opening and ending themes. Just as the reasons why they don't host many kids anime, or why they change character names around in anime such as Jojo does not matter. Crap is still crap regardless of why it's crap.
>> No. 32016 [Edit]
You are literally the only anonymous I’ve ever met that cares about kids anime getting subbed/hosted. It should be simple enough to watch as listening practice if you know grammar okayish!
>> No. 34356 [Edit]
So, lately I have been encountering some problems with downloading anime eps with subs in my native language. First, for whatever reason there seems to a lot of fansubs that don't even do the OP and ED, and by not doing I am not saying they don't translate, but they literally take it out. I can't believe someone can do such a thing, why? Is there such a problem in the others language-spheres?
And the other problem is they don't number the order of the specials and such. So you end up with a bunch of files ordered by name only, with some eps going before the eps that came before it.
Are those problems exclusive to my country or do you guys have it too?
>> No. 34357 [Edit]
A lot of official subs don't do the OP and ED either.
>> No. 34359 [Edit]
>I can't believe someone can do such a thing, why?
A lot of people just skip these. It's incomprehensible to me.
>> No. 34360 [Edit]
Oh nevermind I misread what you meant by "don't do." Excising the OP/ED entirely seems pretty egregious. Maybe they're trying to cut down on filesize.
>> No. 38043 [Edit]
Learn jap; ignore subs.
>> No. 38045 [Edit]
When you license an anime, you don't automatically (most of the time) get the right to the song's lyrics, merely to reproduce the performance as part of the series. The OP/ED lyrics rights are separate, and cost additional money - therefore, most official subtitling companies don't bother to do so for a web release, as it doesn't really impact their viewership statistics. As for fansubs, well, most fansubs nowadays are either 1:1 rips of official subtitles or slightly modified versions of them - as such, they reproduce this omission as well.
>> No. 38086 [Edit]
>The OP/ED lyrics rights are separate, and cost additional money
I find that so strange. We can hear the lyrics, and if you understand Japanese you know what they say, so what difference does it really make if they are displayed in text? It's such a dumb concept to treat it as a separate licence.
>> No. 38087 [Edit]
Music licensing is weird and it seems song lyrics are a gray area. There have been lawsuits in the US as well about displaying song lyrics without the appropriate license to do so [1].
>> No. 38089 [Edit]
That is surreal. I doubt the artist will lose out on anything if a person reads the lyrics to the song. Who buys a book of lyrics instead of an album/single? Nobody.
>> No. 38095 [Edit]
They lose nothing but it was never about that. Artists are petty bitches and publishers are jews. It's a symbiosis.
>> No. 38098 [Edit]
Yeah, fuck you too.
>> No. 38099 [Edit]
If you're an Artists (or publisher?) who takes offense to the other anon's comments, you could voice your stance on the matter, no need for insults and cursing.
>> No. 38101 [Edit]
My response is as meaningless as their post. Insults are the only possible means of communicating with some people.
>If you're an Artists (or publisher?)
>> No. 38102 [Edit]
The argument you might make legally to something like this is that an unauthorized translation could harm the reception of the song if it was done improperly. Translation isn't always 100% straightforward so it makes some sense.

The reality is probably more like the publisher wants to nickle and dime everything they can get out of the music so you have to reach an agreement on their terms. Of course, I'm just pulling these ideas out of my ass, maybe there's an entirely different reason for it all together. All I know is that most music companies are fucking garbage.
>> No. 38103 [Edit]
Petty bitch then maybe? Jew? Symbiont?
You had to take umbrage with something

Post edited on 25th Apr 2021, 4:48pm
>> No. 38104 [Edit]
Does it matter? Why should I "voice my stance" in response to every insult? I wont change anyone's mind. A simple fuck you gets my stance across succinctly.
>> No. 38105 [Edit]
Jew huh? My condolences
>> No. 38154 [Edit]
He's clearly a yid.
>> No. 38155 [Edit]
Based on you feeling the need to post this a week later, you're clearly a cunt.
>> No. 38161 [Edit]
Hey, anon could be a schlomo. Or a hebe.
>> No. 38162 [Edit]
File 162016684784.jpg - (349.71KB , 1376x2048 , fe7d4c79edc45149eb0ed0b51012bc26.jpg )
Do you use tohno-chan so you can be further ostracized, because I don't.
>> No. 38164 [Edit]
Then don't insult people that aren't personally attacking you. Jews and jewish stuff have deservedly gained a bad reputation with a lot of people, but no one could ostracize you unless you went around announcing you are one.
Putting yourself into a victim position and then whining about it, truly a jewish specialty.
>> No. 38165 [Edit]
That's bullshit. You wouldn't like it if something intrinsic to you was constantly used as a synonym for bad, evil, greedy, worthless, etc. And in the places you go to relax. If it's intrinsic to you, it is a personal attack. Why should I passively accept it? It wears a person down. I already dropped this until somebody brought it back up.
>Jews and jewish stuff have deservedly gained a bad reputation
For political reasons. And since when was tohno-chan the place to air out political frustrations? I'd be glad if Jew and every other word for it was word-filtered. I don't want to hear about Jews here.
>truly a jewish specialty
You can't even criticize me as an individual. Why should I respect you?

Post edited on 4th May 2021, 5:47pm
>> No. 38166 [Edit]
>I'd be glad if Jew and every other word for it was word-filtered
Shut it down! It's pretty hilarious, I'm done. Keep outing yourself then, kike.
Sorry for the off-topic streak here, tohno-chan. I'll stop now.
>> No. 38167 [Edit]
You deserve to be miserable. Not because of the group you belong to, but because of who you are as an individual. Fuck off back to 8chan, stupid cunt.
>Whites and white stuff have deservedly gained a bad reputation with a lot of people, but no one could ostracize you unless you went around announcing you are one.

Post edited on 4th May 2021, 7:20pm
>> No. 38168 [Edit]
I'm worried about how subbers (and dubbers) can just decide to insert their political opinions into the work, with no respect for the source material. Yeah.
>> No. 38177 [Edit]
Sorry mate, I meant no harm, just wanted to poke a bit of fun at the argument.
>> No. 38200 [Edit]
Detecting people of the tribe is my super power. This ability was gifted to me for a reason and it was meant to be shared. Why, not using it to expose the works of the tribesmen would be simply immoral.

And what do the subbers and dubbers who do that have in common? Perhaps... strikingly well developed nasal structures?
>> No. 38201 [Edit]
Gen Fukunaga, the founder and president of Funimation, isn't jewish. So you're not even right about that.
>> No. 40801 [Edit]
For archival reasons, I've been going back over past subs back from when groups such as ddy were more active (and you could usually expect to see alternate subs for seasons). I think my general conclusion is that people have no idea how to evaluate anything

A decent chunk of sub groups just repackaged official subs with minor (but nonetheless positive) edits, and they get worshipped like they're the second coming of christ when the effort involved is about an hour's work. On the other hand you have some subgroups that put in an immense amount of effort with their subs and somehow end up getting pissed on (GG's joshiraku subs are my go-to example. I have no idea what they did to receive so much heat, those aren't low-effort subs considering they included both out-of-band TL notes and inline comments in the ass file). Then you have the groups that decide that "real" translations shouldn't make any reference to japanese terms at all, and so will mercilessly strip off any foreign word (sensei? No that's your "bossman". Yakuza? Nope, "gangster"). [*]

[*] Maybe someday given unbounded time I'll go back and re-edit the translations for my favorite shows. Sabagebu and Flying Witch are good low hanging fruit here, Anime-Koi did a pretty decent job on most of the lines (actually brining it closer to the original JP clause order) but missed on a few others which were worse than the original. And flying-witch had two separate groups (other than the official) make a pass, that'll surely be a fun diff party!

Probably the most annoying thing is that releases don't document the general changes they made, and most people aren't going to bother diffing subs so that's how these cargo cults develop (as an example, the commie subs for Yuyushiki are excessively demonized when as I think I might have written somewhere before they ultimately fixed a few isolated bad word translations, stripped honorifics, and maybe clobbered 1 [honorific-related] joke in total, which while not good is also not the order-of-magnitude fuckup you'd expect from hearing crowd sentiment).

As for localized vs. unlocalized, I think it's a false dichotomy. Unless you're translating poetry in 80% of cases you can usually do a literal translation preserving word choice (and often clause order) without impacting readability. It's only the remaining 20% of cases where the issue of localization comes into place (untranslatable puns or idioms, tradeoff between verbosity, cultural knowledge the viewer might not be familiar with) but there's no point discusisng the nuances there because a lot of groups seem all-to-eager to rewrite perfectly good lines that fall into that 80%.

(Also I think it's worth noting if you are or have ever been interested in subs, skimming through the TL shootouts in the blog are a great way to pass the time. Though a bit nitpicky at times, I find most of the analysis there pretty valuable in demonstrating how even subtle phrasing differences in English can lend different nuance [even if I don't always agree with the suggested stylistic edits]. Also I find it interesting that even after this free editing, many groups haven't incorporated the feedback into revised subs).

I've also noticed that there's a general trend for corporate subs (CR et al.) to have become more localized in recent years. They can still be quite passable (or even excellent) most of the time, but the variance seems to have increased (and it's somehow always ends up being the worst on the exact show you wanted to watch).

I think on the whole though, the current crop of fansub groups is a net negative in that it places the community at a local minimum which it's likely to stay at for the foreseeable future: namely whatever few sub groups exist take official subs, munge them a bit, slap on some typesetting, and (most importantly!) plaster their release name on it. Whether that munging is good or bad is like throwing darts, but given that official subs are usually mostly decent and the current crop of subbers seem inclined to less-literal translations, I'll usually bet on it being worse than the original.

The real tragedy is that this means it's often only popular shows (which usually don't need fansubs) which end up getting them, and rarer shows get left out. The other tragedy is that in theory the fact that timing and a first round of rough translation has already been done by the corporate overlords should mean that it's possible for even an amateur – with a working knowledge of japanese grammar, access to a JP dictionary, and healthy poetic spirit but judicious editorial restraint – to smooth out the rough edges in the raw corporate subs, but in practice perfectly good lines get chucked out in the attempt to make the sub "one's own."
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