moe moe kyun~

Our MAL Club
[Return] [Entire Thread] [Last 50 posts]
Posting mode: Reply
Name
Email
Subject   (reply to 33555)
Message
BB Code
File
File URL
Embed   Help
Password  (for post and file deletion)
  • Supported file types are: GIF, JPEG, JPG, MP3, OGG, PNG, SWF, TORRENT, WEBM
  • Maximum file size allowed is 7000 KB.
  • Images greater than 260x260 pixels will be thumbnailed.
  • Currently 2942 unique user posts.
  • board catalog

File 157080309968.jpg - (149.07KB , 1024x768 , rei_2.jpg )
33555 No. 33555 [Edit]
I found why the theatrical version of Evangelion isn't so popular in the West.
It's format is based on traditional Japanese arts.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jo-ha-kyu

Eva 1: 'the first act as "Love"; the play opens auspiciously, using gentle themes and pleasant music to draw in the attention of the audience'.
Eva 2: 'The second act is described as "Warriors and Battles" (shura). Though it need not contain actual battle, it is generally typified by heightened tempo and intensity of plot'.
Eva 3 Q (kyu): 'The third act, the climax of the entire play, is typified by pathos and tragedy. The plot achieves its dramatic climax'.
Eva 4: 'the fourth act as a michiyuki (journey), which eases out of the intense drama of the climactic act, and often consists primarily of song and dance rather than dialogue and plot'.
Eva 5: 'The fifth act, then, is a rapid conclusion. All loose ends are tied up, and the play returns to an auspicious setting'.
Expand all images
>> No. 33556 [Edit]
I thought people loved Evangeleion in the west.
>> No. 33557 [Edit]
>>33556
Bit too old for modern audiences.
>> No. 33558 [Edit]
I think a lot of anime play out with this kind of structure though. I can't imagine that alone accounting for the dislike of Rebuild.
>> No. 33563 [Edit]
>>33556
I have not gotten the opportunity to watch the new films, aren't they just a retelling of Evangelion?
>> No. 33566 [Edit]
File 157083421158.jpg - (324.09KB , 850x1271 , __souryuu_asuka_langley_lilith_ikari_shinji_ayanam.jpg )
33566
>>33555
Rebuild butchers the characters and falls into the same tropes as other anime(not that those are bad on their own). Eva is special because it differs so much from other anime. Its director made it that way on purpose because of his depression, and that emotional turmoil is written all over the original. He's swimming in money now and probably not the least bit unhappy with life. He himself doesn't like the original.

I mostly don't hate it for what it is, but part of what made the original unique and interesting to me was stripped from rebuild. It's like if ping pong the animation was remade with an all female cast and kyoani's style. I hate the idea of it "replacing" the original. That wont actually happen though. The original will be better remembered in the long run.

He's George Lucasing it.

Post edited on 11th Oct 2019, 3:52pm
>> No. 33567 [Edit]
>>33566
>He himself doesn't like the original.
Where did you get that from?
>> No. 33568 [Edit]
>>33567
I can't find a specific source on it. Maybe it's not true, it's just what I remember from reading other opinions. Maybe he never came right out and said it.
>> No. 33569 [Edit]
>>33557
It's even on Netflix now.
>> No. 33570 [Edit]
I have only ever read the manga adaption.
>> No. 33573 [Edit]
>>33556
I was talking about the films. The TV series is more well recieved in the West, yes.
Such negativity towards the films isn't apparent in the East, which I have surmised to be due to the format being traditional Japanese art format of Jo-ha-kyuu (among other, minor, things).
>> No. 33574 [Edit]
>>33566
That's a common opinion I see all the time. If you re-watch the TV series, you'll find it's actually not better than the films. I did this myself, I thought the TV series was better than the films but when I re-watched the TV series I found I had fabricated just how good it was.

Calling something a 'trope' is honestly a trope at this point. People say it to 'give a criticism' out of necissity. It's one that is 'true' in the sense that it isn't 'false' but if you privvy to what exactly is the 'trope' then you'll find that it's mere personal dislike rather than an actual trope.
>> No. 33575 [Edit]
I’m not sure the consensus for either westerners or the Japanese, but a lot of people seem to think it’s a worse version of Zeta Gundam, Madoka Magica and a certain Kamen Rider series.
The only thing people can seem to agree on is that End of Evangelion is alright to great, are you talking about the rebuilds?
>> No. 33576 [Edit]
>>33575
Yes.
I did say 'theatrical version'.

Each film is an 'act' of the Jo-ha-kyuu traditional Japanese art format (which I listed).
So I also predict five will be the last Eva film.
>> No. 33577 [Edit]
File 157089163978.jpg - (95.51KB , 720x1050 , __ikari_shinji_and_souryuu_asuka_langley_neon_gene.jpg )
33577
>>33574
>I found I had fabricated just how good it was.
Well, how do you define good? The plot comes second in what made Evangelion so appealing. The character dynamics, atmosphere and overarching feeling of despair and discontent is what makes a strong impression. It was so cohesive. It's not a series with good rewatchability because that initial impact is such a big part of it. There's also an ideal time in every person's life to watch it.

Tropes may be overused in fiction critique, but highschool and tsundere and accidentally groping somebody are anime tropes. I don't hate them, but I love how Eva flipped them on their head. Rebuild embraces them instead. It's stripped.
>> No. 33581 [Edit]
>>33577
I define good as in enjoyable to watch. The TV series was fine but I had wrongly thought I enjoyed it more than the films.
The problem, I think, is that we lump 'End of Evangelion' into the TV series. EoE is very enjoyable and without EoE, the TV series, per se, isn't actually as good.

I just don't believe tropes truly exist. Think about it, European and Japanese art has existed for over 10,000 years, do you believe it's possible to invent anything new after such a long time?
'Young people get the foolish idea that what is new for them must be new for everybody else too. No matter how unconventional they get, they're just repeating what others before them have done'. - Yukio Mishima, After the Banquet
>> No. 33599 [Edit]
File 157111859952.gif - (2.23MB , 400x300 , 20199988.gif )
33599
>>33555
I reserved judgement until the last movie is out in year 2099.
>> No. 33602 [Edit]
File 157114915030.jpg - (135.56KB , 496x680 , __ayanami_rei_neon_genesis_evangelion__90f9d8fe2e3.jpg )
33602
>>33581
>EoE is very enjoyable and without EoE, the TV series, per se, isn't actually as good.
EoE isn't as enjoyable with the tv series as well. It doesn't even make sense without it. There's no reason to separate the two apart from production semantics. Anime seasons and OVAs are generally treated as separate "projects" with their own names and that kind of thing, but in EoE's case is might as well have been named "Evangelion the Feature Length Finale". There's no reason to watch it before the series.
>do you believe it's possible to invent anything new after such a long time?
You're saying that like tropes are a bad thing. The word has a negative connotation, but I see them as tools which can be used well or poorly. They still exist though, which is not a bad thing. Subverting tropes can also be done well, which the original series(including EoE did very much of.
>> No. 33640 [Edit]
File 157181559597.jpg - (36.25KB , 720x540 , yaki.jpg )
33640
Evangelion Fonts
https://fontsinuse.com/uses/28760/neon-genesis-evangelion
>> No. 33651 [Edit]
File 157217281150.jpg - (303.10KB , 1200x750 , 1BBC.jpg )
33651
Evangelion UI
http://www.graphicine.com/hideaki-anno-neon-genesis-evangelion/
>> No. 33659 [Edit]
File 157224233642.webm - (1.65MB , Bad Apple x エヴァンゲリオン (s).webm )
33659
>>33640
>>33651

Crap, wish I had found those before, especially the fonts.
>> No. 33660 [Edit]
File 157224255661.gif - (905.28KB , 600x338 , bad apple x evangelion omake.gif )
33660
Also full vid

https://youtu.be/DblL71oP6QY
>> No. 34130 [Edit]
So, I realised.
Assuming Asuka awakens soon after the events of Evangelion 2.0, then, even though she is physically still 14, she must be mentally 28 years old.
It's very interesting to watch Evangelion 3.0 with this in mind. It explains why Asuka keeps calling Shinji 'gaki'.
>> No. 34131 [Edit]
>>33566
>Rebuild butchers the characters
I never watched these films. What exactly did they do to the characters?
>> No. 34132 [Edit]
>>34131
They're flanderized, emphasising certain traits while removing others. Character moments and emotional issues are also removed. Misato's dad complex and Asuka's mom complex are extremely glossed over. This is supposed to be a retelling.

Post edited on 27th Feb 2020, 4:57am
>> No. 34133 [Edit]
>>34132
This little tidbit really explains Misato's character and how rebuild ruins her.
https://youtu.be/QEn6-vLYvFQ?t=392
>> No. 34134 [Edit]
>>34132
>They're flanderized, emphasising certain traits while removing others
Such as?

>Character moments and emotional issues are also removed.
Did you miss the whole of Eva 2.0 where Rei literally starts learning to cook meals to bring people closer together?

>This is supposed to be a retelling.
It's not a re-telling though.
Did you miss the bit where Mari crashes into Shinji and then in the next scene Shinji has trouble getting his cassette player to work? This indicated that the timeline had broken, that by that point the re-telling was over and a new timeline had begun.
>> No. 34135 [Edit]
>>34134
>Such as?
Their emotional traumas being the cause of their actions. If you had never seen the originals, Asuka's whole thing with her mother would not seem as important as it actually is with Asuka. Shinji's lack of self-assurance is toned down and replaced by an action hero type character. Nuance and believability in the characters is what made the original so great. Rebuild fails as a remake and as a sequel.
>Rei literally starts learning to cook meals to bring people closer together
I don't care about Rei. I'd rather have Shinji kill Kaworu than have Rei cooking.

Post edited on 28th Feb 2020, 2:52pm
>> No. 34136 [Edit]
>>34135
>Nuance and believability in the characters is what made the original so great.

Pfff. Good one.
>> No. 34137 [Edit]
>>34136
Compared to Yuno or Junko, they are. They ground the crazy setting. What do you like about the originals?
>> No. 34140 [Edit]
>>34135
>If you had never seen the originals
But everybody has. So what would be the point in repeating things everybody already knows?
That's a waste of time, just re-watch the TV if that's what you want.

>Shinji's lack of self-assurance is toned down and replaced by an action hero type character.
I don't see that. Just your imagination.

>I don't care about Rei.
Ahah, and that's why you don't like the rebuilds. They are for Rei.
Rebuild will be a Rei ending, I'm willing to bet.

And you're missing (as usual) a very big theme of the rebuilds. Identiy. Or the truth of identity.
If you actually paid attention to the film rather than just bandwagoning your brain to everybody else's, you would have noticed.
A lot of characters in the Rebuilds have questionable true identities. Asuka is an easy one, since her middle name changes. Can you prove this is the same Asuka from the TV? No, it's NEVER verified. And then in 3.0 Shinji asks if it's really Asuka and there is no answer. This is intentional (you'd know if you study theatre).
The same goes for Shinji. In 3.0, when they get Shinji, there are questions as to whether it's Shinji (Misato asking, //Shinji?? on his foot) and, again, it is never answered.

And, again again, you justifying your dislike of it for whatever reasons you said but the true reason is as I said in the beginning, the films are based on Japanese traditional theatre arts, which you are not familiar with. You can say you don't care but human nature dictates you hate difference.


'To be independent of public opinion is the first formal condition of achieving anything great or rational whether in life or in science. Great achievement is assured, however, of subsequent recognition and grateful acceptance by public opinion, which in due course will make it one of its own prejudices'.
- Georg Wilhelm Friedrich Hegel, 'Grundlinien der Philosophie des Rechts'
>> No. 34141 [Edit]
>It begins slowly and auspiciously in the first part (jo), building up the drama and tension in the second, third, and fourth parts (ha), with the greatest climax in the third dan, and rapidly concluding with a return to peace and auspiciousness in the fifth dan (kyū).[2]

That's basically just the classic hero story in the west. It really is nothing new and it most certainly is nothing unique to Japan.
>> No. 34142 [Edit]
>>34140
>But everybody has.
Unfortunately not. To some people, this is eva. I only "dislike" rebuild compared to the original and resent the idea of it as a replacement. Even the name is suggesting of that. What's being rebuilt and why does it need to be rebuilt? As a stand alone product it's just meh for me.
>I don't see that.
Compare how he acts before the first time he pilots in both.
>A lot of characters in the Rebuilds have questionable true identities
There may be some interest in that theory, maybe this is true maybe it's not. There might be some interest in the whole tired parralel universe thing. I don't think the story gains anything from that(compared to the original). What does rebuild say about identity? Just that it's questionable or not actually real? Lain did that better and said something more specific, how identity pretains to the internet.
>They are for Rei
Well that's nice. I thought Anno also didn't care about Rei and didn't get why other people did. Guess he wanted to make her more fleshed out by toning down the qualities which drew people to Rei in the first place.
>> No. 34143 [Edit]
File 158298737819.jpg - (60.06KB , 848x480 , [gg]_Zan_Sayonara_Zetsubou_sensei_-_08_[7AF2CE43]_.jpg )
34143
>>34142
You're taking the 'rebuild' too literally. I don't even know if it's called Rebuild in Japanese (as expected, I was right 'known in Japan as Evangelion: New Theatrical Edition').
It's not made to replace the TV, Jesus Christ. Why do you assume that? It's not like the TV is being deleted.
>Unfortunately not. To some people, this is eva.
Who cares what dumb people think? Why do you? A slave to public opinion? I refer to the Hegel quote again then.

It's not a paralell universe, it's the same universe on repeat but, rather than a complete circle, it repeats in more of a progressing coil. Literally the opening scene of 1.0 shows you the ending of EoE. It wasn't subtle, it wasn't meant to be subtle. If you missed such an obvious sign, I really can't help you.
As Kaworu says in 3.0 'the beginning and the end are the same'.
You need to study up on the themes of Ouroboros and Friedrich Wilhelm Nietzsche's 'eternal recurrence'.

'The book of Ecclesiastes in the Hebrew Bible states: "The thing that hath been, it is that which shall be; and that which is done is that which shall be done: and there is no new thing under the sun".'
'The ouroboros appears elsewhere in Egyptian sources, where, like many Egyptian serpent deities, it represents the formless disorder that surrounds the orderly world and is involved in that world's periodic renewal'.

>Guess he wanted to make her more fleshed out by toning down the qualities which drew people to Rei in the first place.
What the fuck kind of assumption is that? You don't even like Rei so how on Earth do you form such an assumption FOR people who do like Rei?
We don't like her because she had no emotion, I'm guessing that's what you're assuming, because that's all you see in Rei. You're very wrong. I'm not going to bother explaining why I like Rei to you because I'd bet you magically find a way to say I'm wrong (yes, I'm liking Rei for the wrong reasons or it's not the reason other people like Rei).
Majority opinion is always the lesser of opinions, regardless.
>> No. 34147 [Edit]
>>34143
>Who cares what dumb people think? Why do you? A slave to public opinion? I refer to the Hegel quote again then.

>You need to study up on the themes of Ouroboros and Friedrich Wilhelm Nietzsche's 'eternal recurrence'.

>Nietzsche

Another good one.
>> No. 34148 [Edit]
>>34143
I don't get why you're getting so worked up. Like it all you want. My opinion is just the originals are a better experience than rebuild. I like what it says and how it says it more.
>It's not a paralell universe, it's the same universe on repeat
From a story-telling function, the difference doesn't matter to me. It's just as dull to me as parralel universes or the matrix or dream in a dream in a dream. I don't care. The world is on repeat, but wait, maybe they're different people, in the same world, but wait, maybe they are the same people, but wait, maybe they're a fusion of different versions of themselves. Yawn.
>What the fuck kind of assumption is that?
Well I don't know. Characters like Nagato and her other kuundere clones communicate that to me. The porn people draw of her does too. What appeal I personally see in Rei comes from her lack of emotions. Does the short-hair do it for you? What? I wont say you're wrong.
>> No. 34156 [Edit]
File 158306658954.png - (903.12KB , 650x1280 , Eyes.png )
34156
>>34148
It's a boring opinion I've seen a thousand times. I want to be intruged by somebody, yet all I ever see is the same thing over and over again. Don't even pretend you came up with it yourself. Ideas don't exist because of people, they always existed and people merely catch them, like a disease.
I'm getting worked up, I guess, because it seems my efforts to teach people to become carriers of more interesting opinions failed.

I don't really care what you think, 'you' are not important, neither am I. Ideas are important, beyond the self, ideas exist without the 'self', the self is merely the carrier.
Then, I have surmised, that any person can become a carrier of more interesting ideas, thus livening up this world.
And yet, my attempts to prove such hypothesis is not bearing results. I wonder what the cause is. Is my process inefficient or are some brains merely incapable of proceeding further.

>Characters like Nagato and her other kuundere clones communicate that to me
And you'd be wrong. You can either struggle at attempts to understand or you can just admit you're wrong.
Funny how ideas linger like a disease, altering the host to protect them, even if harmful to the host. But why?

Ideas are the source of humanity, if I could figure out that source, I will be one step closer to understanding the 'absolute truth'.

'Eigene Meinungen. - Die erste Meinung, welche uns einfällt, wenn wir plötzlich über eine Sache befragt werden, ist gewöhnlich nicht unsere eigene, sondern nur die landläufige, unserer Kaste, Stellung, Abkunft zugehörige; die eigenen Meinungen schwimmen selten oben auf'.
- Friedrich Wilhelm Nietzsche, 'Menschliches, Allzumenschliches'
>> No. 34157 [Edit]
>>34156
Es ist unhöflich, andere Sprachen auf englischen Imagebaords zu sprechen.
>> No. 34158 [Edit]
File 158307538445.jpg - (480.08KB , 640x801 , __nagato_yuki_rem_ayanami_rei_and_tabitha_suzumiya.jpg )
34158
>>34156
I think you hold the record for most pretentious post I've ever seen. Philosophical ideas and symbolism and speeches only have so much value. They're cheap. They're a dime a dozen. In a story, they should take second place to the execution. I didn't like the original Eva for its religious symbolism. It was just a nice ornament. Eva's themes only had value because of how they were conveyed, not for their own sake. I don't care if Rebuild's ideas are actually more complex and more deep and have more references to more things like "Jo-ha-kyu". More more more.
>And you'd be wrong.
Sure sure. Many otaku don't like Kundere characters because they're placid and logical and never cause a scene or any trouble, but still can feel affection and aren't actually frigid. Just want to see them open up and learn to love and be happy(again like Nagato). Their appeal totally doesn't come from how opposite they are to nearly all actual woman. I don't care how "interesting" that idea is because it makes sense. If something makes more sense, i'll change my opinion. Wow, in real life, my ideas aren't socially acceptable and have to be kept hidden, and on the internet, they're not "interesting" enough. Do yourself a favor and get a stem hobby. Too much образованщина декаданс in your system.
>> No. 34159 [Edit]
>>34156
I wasn't going to mention it but considering you seem to care about popularity so much you should probably now the new theatrical editions have increasingly good box office intake and seem to be fairly well received from what I've seen. That'd make liking them the mediocre public opinion you seem to despise so much.
>> No. 34160 [Edit]
>>34158
Different anon here. I'm a Kundere fan and to your statements I say, why not both?
>> No. 34161 [Edit]
>>34160
>why not both?
What do you mean? The way I write is confusing. This
>they're placid and logical and never cause a scene or any trouble, but still can feel affection and aren't actually frigid. Just want to see them open up and learn to love and be happy
is meant to be one idea. Characters that lack the unappealing aspects of woman, while still having room for romance and relationships. There's that initial appeal, without the downsides of an actually frigid woman. This is my theory on why people like them. Both Rei and Nagato go through this seemingly impossible, miraculous transformation that doesn't ruin them.

Post edited on 1st Mar 2020, 1:28pm
>> No. 34162 [Edit]
>>34161
I like them because they're placid and logical, and I'm saying why not also how opposite they are to nearly all actual woman? But I think I see what you meant now, that it's not -just- that they're different from actual women. Right?
>> No. 34163 [Edit]
>>34162
Yes
>they're placid and logical
>opposite they are to nearly all actual woman
These mean the same thing to me.
>> No. 34167 [Edit]
>>34158
Ahh, heaven forbid somebody is actually better than you. That's physically impossible, right? We're all equal. What a joke.
If that's what you think then think it to your grave, I don't care, but clearly you won't ever think differently, you're not programmed to.
Then why do you even bother existing? It's a rhetorical question. I already know your answer, you are a boring person. But since I've hurt your ego, you must respond, but I already know your response. God damn why are you so defiantly boring? Why is your ego so God damn fragile?
Whatever man, just whatever. God my fucking head hurts from how boring you are.

And I haven't read beyond your first sentence of that post because, if it's like the thousands of other people's I've talked to, with the same, boring opinions, then I already know what it says.

'Philosophy must indeed recognize the possibility that the people rise to it, but must not lower itself to the people'.
- Georg Wilhelm Friedrich Hegel
>> No. 34168 [Edit]
>>34167
He's right though, you are pretentious. And boring you are too, it's probably why you keep going on about him being boring, it's a deep seated insecurity you have.
>> No. 34169 [Edit]
File 158315859967.jpg - (152.39KB , 850x850 , __koakuma_touhou_drawn_by_ayase_yuuki_mikan_mochi_.jpg )
34169
>>34167
>And I haven't read beyond your first sentence of that post because
Sure, that's why you took the time to write such an angry rant. Yawn~~~~
“Anger is an acid that can do more harm to the vessel in which it is stored than to anything on which it is poured.”
― Mark Twain
>> No. 34170 [Edit]
>>34168
I'm utterly confident in who I am, nice try though but, you, in saying that, does that not mean it is you who is insecure about yourself? 笑
Pretentious, is that supposed to be deregitory? 笑, only to 'we're all created equal' Communists would that be true. Some people are born better than others; the man with full sight is objectively superior to the man born blind.

'The infuriating thing about an individual way of living. People are always angry at anyone who chooses very individual standards for his life; because of the extraordinary treatment which that man grants to himself, they feel degraded, like ordinary beings'.
- Friedrich Wilhelm Nietzsche

>>34169
You think I have anger towards you? You've learnt nothing then. 'You' don't matter. You can't change your nature, no more than the Etheopian his skin or the leopard his spots.
My anger is directed elsewhere.

'It is easier to discover a deficiency in individuals, in states, and in providence, than to see their real import or value'
- Georg Wilhelm Friedrich Hegel

'The surest way to corrupt a youth is to instruct him to hold in higher esteem those who think alike than those who think differently'.
- Friedrich Wilhelm Nietzsche

'We often contradict an opinion for no other reason than that we do not like the tone in which it is expressed'.
- "

'Arrogance on the part of the meritorious is even more offensive to us than the arrogance of those without merit: for merit itself is offensive'.
- "
>> No. 34171 [Edit]
This has gone on for long enough.
I hereby declare this thread a quote-free zone.
>> No. 34173 [Edit]
File 158316771823.png - (1.83MB , 1920x1080 , [HorribleSubs] Kyokou Suiri - 04 [1080p]_mkv (00_0.png )
34173
>>34167
>>34170
Stop posting, for everyone's sake.
>> No. 34174 [Edit]
>>34170
>Pretentious, is that supposed to be deregitory?

Well yes, if you knew what the word even meant which you evidently don't.
>> No. 34177 [Edit]
>>34174
I know what it means; I, however, have no reason to believe you. Do you believe your word is better than mine? Oh my, then, it's almost like you're me, being pretentious, acting superior.
I mean, if we're equal, and I claim I am not pretentious but you claim I am, who is right? Neither of us, right? Because we're equal. Unless somebody is better than the other, unless you are superior to me or I am to you, then neither of us can claim to be correct.
>> No. 34264 [Edit]
File 158665750827.jpg - (92.39KB , 1024x768 , 145623425897.jpg )
34264
>>34177
[Return] [Entire Thread] [Last 50 posts]

View catalog

Delete post []
Password  
Report post
Reason  


[Home] [Manage]



[ Rules ] [ an / foe / ma / mp3 / vg / vn ] [ cr / fig / navi ] [ mai / ot / so / tat ] [ arc / ddl / irc / lol / ns / pic ] [ home ]