>>33406
> I feel as if the characters are being as mouth pieces for the creators
In some sense all media is going to be influenced by the views of the creators. But I do think some genres are particularly egregious in this respect, while others such as SoL/Comedy tend to avoid having large overburdening themes by their nature in favor of more earthly themes such as friendship, etc. I particularly hate when anime try to beat you over the head with a theme instead of focusing on the plot and having the theme be something you can arrive at yourself later.

In terms of particular anime, the only that comes to mind at the moment is Welcome to the NHK. I'm not sure why so many like this when it's core message seems to be more anti-hikki than otherwise. And it's core takeaway seems to be "you don't need to wait for a eccentric, clingy JK to force you into joining society, you can do that by yourself right now!"

>>33407
>it's core takeaway seems to be "you don't need to wait for a eccentric, clingy JK to force you into joining society, you can do that by yourself right now!"
I don't know if that's necesarily true. The anime is based on a book written by an actual hikki. He tried re-entering society and ended up failing in part because the anime royalties supported his life style. The message of the show seemed more like "life is worth living if you try to make it better, but it wont just become better by itself". It's true.

That theme isn't even specific to hikkis. Other characters who are a part of society were also miserable because they didn't take any proactive action to improve things. They thought their problems were caused by forces outside of their control instead of themselves. There's really isn't going to be an eccentric, clingy JK there to make things better for you. You probably will end up with a mediocre lifestyle anyway, but that's still some kind of improvement because it's freedom. I can understand disagreeing with that part though. The show is probably popular among this crowd because it's not about shaming people for being a hikki and it doesn't portray non-hikki life like a paradise. Its message seemed subtle to me.

Post edited on 14th Sep 2019, 11:30am

>>33408
I read Welcome to the NHK, over a decade ago, but I totally got the opposite impression out of it. For the longest time I wanted a abused character like Misaki to come and "save me". This was a valid thing for me in High School, because at the time I also wish for years that something like Harry Potter was real as well (i.e. I wanted someone to save me). Even now, I really want a girl to "find me" and some how turn me into the person I want to be. It's not happening, so I'm just going to stay the disgusting little loser I am.

>>33409
The anime and print editions supposedly differ in their portrayal of Misaki a bit, so that might account for some of the differences in viewpoint.

>>33408
Of course the most of my problems are caused by forces outside of my control. I tried your medicine, I swallowed it by the bucketload. Guess what, I'm still here. It didn't work at all.
Things can get better only if others are willing to make them better for you. Otherwise good fucking luck struggling against their will. It's a never ending unwinnable war. You're alone against the world and you're not going to succeed, ever. If they won't let you you just don't get to live.

That mediocre humble lifestyle you speak of? For a man like me it's not freedom. In this economy and this society it's a prison. Shackled to a shit minimum wage job you can't afford to lose, always at the mercy of hostile ford drivers. Let's say you're socially awkward and can't start shooting the shit with the boys right away on your first day on the job. Sorry pal, you've got the black mark. It's never going away.
It doesn't matter that you never did them any wrong. For them you're unlikable no matter what and a suitably despicable persona is going to be invented for you.

So you have to work twice as hard, take all the hate with a straight face like an obedient slave, play the role of the clueless agreeable halfwit and never complain about anything, never even dare to be yourself. You do what you're told and there is no room for your individuality on any level. Because you're an object. An object that's going to be kept performing to the expected spec or discarded.
Every mistake, real or imagined, that a loser makes is going to be dramatically exaggerated and used against him. While others get away with pretty much anything because cronyism is the name of the game. Always and everywhere.

And what's the reward for enduring it? I don't know, maybe the magnanimous permission to live another day and suffer the same shit tomorrow.
Fuck that. Fuck all of it. Proactive action my ass. For someone who has no tools and resources to entice or force others to conform to their will, or at least to make them tolerate it, it's never going to work. Alone you're powerless.
Just as poor will keep getting poorer the lonely will remain alone and shunned to boot.

>>33409
It makes sense to want it. If the real world is unwilling to give you any support no matter what you do, what else is left but to dream of someone wanting to save you?

>>33411
First of all, Satou wasn't confirmed to have any mental illnesses in the anime. The only explanation we get for why he became a hikki is a sudden onset of extreme social anxiety on the first day of college. Why he became a hikki is besides the point and within the context of the show, him being a hikki was largely his own fault.

We're talking about anime here and what they try to convey. If you want to talk about how society fucked you over, /so/ is right over there.

One of the themes I often see and disagree with is that humanity should be allowed to destroy itself, a villain will be trying to do something to fix the world because he knows that humanity will destroy it in the future, the protagonists is shown a vision of humanity destroying the world in the future and yet he continues anyway and says something like 'yeah but people should do whatever they want'.

>>33414
> a villain will be trying to do something to fix the world
Is there a specific anime you have in mind? Perhaps I'm not understanding, but it seems odd that the hero fights to allow the villain to destroy the world.

On the flipside I think some anime show the world being saved at any cost, even when it would have been better to let it all burn down. Case in point being Yuuki Yuuna where despite realizing they were all tricked into suffering and that their world is essentially an illusion anyway, Yuuna for some reason fights to prevent Togo from razing everything to the ground. And Togo for some reason turns on a dime and abandons her plan, and somehow magically through the power of friendship all the suffering they underwent gets reset, except not really because they supposedly just shifted the burden of being a Hero to some other unlucky group.

>>33414
The virgin deontologist vs. the Chad consequentialist.

>>33414
Parasyte sort of had something similar where Izumi decides to kill Gotou for humanity's sake. Gotou is ultimately defeated by human pollution and the point of the parasites was to prevent humans from destroying the planet. Having Gotou run around the woods killing a person here or there wouldn't make much of a difference to anything, but killing him was a symbolic rejection of picking the earth over humans.

Pretty much any show were having an "interesting life" is more important than your own well-being, the well-being of others, practicality, and plain common sense. Huruhi when Kyon decided to return the world to a state where everybody could be instantly deleted. The Familiar of Zero when main character guy decided to go back to a world in the medieval ages for the sake of an abusive relationship. Chuunibyou x 1000000. When eye-patch and blondie started growing up and not acting like they have a mental disability, I was cheering and rooting for them. Then the ending happened and the old man narrator started waxing philosophically about how growing up sucks and constantly making everybody around you uncomfortable with your delusional roleplaying is perfectly fine. But hey, cute girls right? Here's a second season with a bit more yuri.

>>33415
It happens in a few animes. I think Hakyuu Houshin Engi is one I can't think of others right now. It's not that they are fighting to allow the villain to destroy the world, the villain wants to save the world but by doing so it usually involves conquering the world to force them to act a certain way or doing some kind of ritual but the protagonist will stop it and say that humanity should follow it's own fate even when he knows where that will lead.

>>33418
>Then the ending happened and the old man narrator started waxing philosophically about how growing up sucks and constantly making everybody around you uncomfortable with your delusional roleplaying is perfectly fine.

I don't see a problem with this, I like them better that way.

>>33420
You wouldn't if they weren't cute girls.

>>33418
>Chuunibyou x 1000000. When eye-patch and blondie started growing up and not acting like they have a mental disability, I was cheering and rooting for them. Then the ending happened and the old man narrator started waxing philosophically about how growing up sucks and constantly making everybody around you uncomfortable with your delusional roleplaying is perfectly fine. But hey, cute girls right? Here's a second season with a bit more yuri.
Rikka's a trauma-induced chuuni, but she remains one despite having her issue resolved. That right there is what killed it for me.
This is why I prefer Aura.

>>33418
I greatly prefer that to the opposite. It's very liberating to just say "fuck all that".

>>33421
Yes I would, probably. It's a strong theme in Japanese media anyway, the idea of individuality and being special(not that it's exclusive to Japan though, probably because of the conformation and collectivist nature of Japanese society, this kind of anime is a fantasy escape from that.

>>33422
>>33423
>>33424
There's other ways to not conform. It's like saying walking around without clothes or being unhygenic or playing loud music constantly is a good thing because it shows a lack of consideration for the people around you and fuck caring about stuff. For me personally, I would find it unbelievably annoying. Willful ignorance is frustrating.

>>33425
>walking around without clothes or being unhygenic or playing loud music constantly
This and more is the norm in my area. Words can't express my contempt for these people. It makes me hate my life and not want to leave my home and wish I could have been raised somewhere half way decent.

I really like Mob but I agree with you that its even more obvious than in others anime that the author is using his characters as mouthpieces, the second season gets super preachy towards the end.

Technically not an anime, but I never fully accepted the themes presented in the Heaven's Feel route of Fate Stay Night. I understand that its a good thing for Shirou to let go of his ideals of being a superhero and trying to save everyone and instead just being happy and protecting the person he loves the most, but at the same time it never sat well with me the idea that its ok to let thousands of innocents die in exchange of the one person you care about even though I understand why it is presented like that.
I guess that much like Shirou in UBW I still hold childish ideals.

>>33428
I remember being very frustrated by that when I read it. I wonder if I would feel differently now.

>>33428
Even Archer hates UBW route hence why he tried to kill himself.
And Shirou only wanted to be a hero because of his survivor's guilt.

>>33428
Similar here.

But why would you describe basic human decency as 'childish ideals'? Children don't consider the effects their actions have on others. And just because most adult people in the world give in to greed and hypocrisy doesn't mean it's the right way.

For most 'growing up' is only learning how to obfuscate the base childish selfishness. It's done with the help of the socially sanctified excuses which let them openly act like cunts and feel good about it.
Out there anything goes if it can be excused as being about muh career, muh responsibilities, muh childruns, muh wealth and so on.

It all comes down to a mindset of "I do what I want caring only about the shit I own and the people I want, damn the bystanders. If I leave a mess let others clean it up, it's their problem."

>>33412
The post I referred to described the message as objectively true. That is where it stopped being just about anime.

'Themes from anime which you disagree with' are inseparable from your life experience so you won't be kicking me out this time.
Also what mental illness, the hell are you talking about?

>>33434
You generally don't give people pills unless they have a mental illness. You mentioned pills. The only thing I stated as fact was there isn't going to be a girl coming out of nowhere to fix your problems. I even said whether a mediocre role in society is an improvement or not from a hikki lifestyle is up for debate.
>I can understand disagreeing with that part.
You can state your opinion without rambling on about your life story and how bitter you are and blah blah blah.

>>33435
No one mentioned any pills anywhere in this thread. Fuck off.

>>33437
>I tried your medicine, I swallowed it by the bucketload.
Did you mean "metaphorical medicine"? I didn't pick up on the minute details while skimming your post.

Post edited on 15th Sep 2019, 11:41am

>>33425
I don't think that having fun without being overly self-conscious is the same as public indecency.

>>33439
Having fun is playing a game, or singing karaoke or going to an amusement park, or enjoying a hobby within your own home or at a club. Wearing ridiculous clothes, pretending you have super powers 24/7 and making public scenes while going out of your way to embarrass a specific person is public indecency.

It's certainly a cry for help.

>>33434
It's a childish ideal because it's literally impossible. You can't be a hero; you can't save everybody.
It's explained in the VN itself, to be a hero you have to have villians meaning you want villians to exist otherwise heros cannot exist, and if you don't save the villian then you aren't a true hero.
Children live in fantasy, adults live in reality.

>>33408
That is not what I got out of it. In fact, I think NHK was all about circumstance and how they are the driving force of your life. I think at some point its spelled out very bluntly. For example, take the MMO addict character. He did try the self help route but it got him nowhere. But what in the end made him leave the room and get a job? Necessity. If he didn't, he would starve. Same story with Satou. Misaki might as well have never been part of Satou's life and he would've ended up the very same way. Parents stop sending you money to live? Well fuck I guess you gotta find a job or else you starve. That's necessity. Circumstance. All the experiences and self help leading up until the point where Satou withdraws from society again meant nothing. Re-integrating society as a life goal? What a fucking joke. You only do so because being a working entity gives you more chance of survival.

By the way, nothing's ever said about whether Satou or the MMO addict guy lived fulfilling lifes after they got jobs. And certainly, Misaki is only there for entertainment purposes of the viewer. After all, it wouldn't be very fun if the story ended at Satou having to wageslave alone in his life. Although that is the more realistic scenario.

>>33446
>By the way, nothing's ever said about whether Satou or the MMO addict guy lived fulfilling lifes after they got jobs.

I think it is implied that the MMO guy does, in the anime anyway. I have not seen it in a while but I think they portray him as working hard but being happy at the same time.

>>33446
In MMO guy and Satou's case I see your point, but when it comes to the members of the offline meeting notice suicide pact, all of them had issues which they were partly to blame for and they could have resolved themselves(except business man guy I guess). Although circumstance was what made MMO guy and Satou leave their lifestlye, it's not why they got into that lifestlye to start with, neither is a consipiracy. When they did get out into the world, they used their own two feet to walk out. I'm not saying this theme is necessarily true; some people are born fucked up, but i'm going off of what information the show gave. I'm thinking about reading the novel because I bet its adaptations purposefully went in a more digestable, positive direction.

>some people are born fucked up
No it's the world that's fucked up.

>>33448
The novel is way more hopeless and actually doubles down on the "being born fucked up" part you mentioned. None of the characters in the novel really achieve happiness or truly sort their problems out, they just accept their lot and survive. The anime is much more hopeful in that sense.

People aren't born bad, they're raised bad.

>>33446
That's a very black pilled outlook on the story. You know, it could have also gone other ways. Yamakazi for example, probably would have obtained another job after he ran out of money. Satou most likely would have ended up killing himself. Misaki and Satou in the end were both very good for each other, because in at least one case, suicide was avoided.
Never underestimate friendship when it comes to mental health. Loneliness is a bitch.

The H-Game represents coping with life. We all have different coping mechanisms (e.g. mine is work). Failure to cope with life never goes well.

Monster Girl Quest. I like the story, I like the characters, I appreciate Luka's development, however, I never really agreed with the "always co-exist no matter what" theme. Granted, i'd pick living with monster girls over most types of people. I'm probably misinterpreting it though and i'd like to know what the message is supposed to mean within Japan's cultural context. Different personality types? People who have nothing in common and with seperate, innate and cultural allegiances, have far less to gain from being in the same place than what they lose.

Naruto the Hypocrite
Most entitled and naturally talented ninja says that hard work will get you your dreams.
https://youtu.be/v2tkz92eG_E
Rock Lee forever.

>>33455
If Rocklee was the main character, he would have a super secret power which made him stronger than everybody else. After "unlocking it" he'd spend a month or something in a training montage and surpass all his classmates. That's just the writer for you.

>>33455
its funny how at the end of the day the manga proved Neji right for saying that your lineage was everything

>>33455
So in the end it's an unintentionally accurate allegory of real life?

I hate it when the hero wins with one special move. Loved it when One Punch Man turned it on its head though.

>>33662

Maybe it's because I work in vineyards in the countryside all the year, but I really dislike the view of countryside as peaceful and cozy. I understand that it is framed from the point of view of people who live in cities and it reflect (probably) the view of a nation torn between a westernized future and a traditional past, but I still hate it.

>>33786
Ehhh. But I live in the country and it is peaceful and cozy, what isn't peaceful or cozy about it?

I dislike when everything rests solely on the main character's shoulders, and absolutely no one else can help them accomplish the objective. Things just don't work that way, as one can only accomplish so much by themselves, much less changing the world. The writing normally has to be really contrived to make up for this, which generally just leads to an unpleasant viewing experience, at least for me.

I like seeing teamwork in action series. Like actual teamwork and not just the MC destroying the antagonists with his "friendship" beam or whatever.

I hate it when people are forced to follow insane rules and regulations, even when it means them and everyone around them has to suffer or die.

I've thought about Mob Psycho 100 some more. It's themes also don't work within the context of it's own universe. The way it hides this is by ignoring large parts of reality. One of the main themes is that nobody is more special or important because of their natural abilities and you shouldn't use your abilities to get what you want from others. Now, this is pretty ridiculous when you really think about it.

At the beginning of the anime, part of Mob's "problem" is shown to be his personality. He doesn't live a satisfying life because his personality prevents him from doing so. Teruki is the opposite. He enjoys his life by "using" his powers on others in various ways. He's also confident and proactive and presumably has good social skills. Yet the show then tries to assert that he's the same as Mob despite that. Why? Because he's reliant on his powers. Without those he's "nothing", and that's bad. That could be said about pretty much anything else people are born with though. What's a pretty girl without their looks? What's an athlete without their athletic ability? People take advantage of these things all the time. It would be one thing if this was demonstrated with other things, but it only shows it with psychic powers for some reason.

Ahleticism is positioned as the opposite of psychic powers. People are born with psychic abilities, people have to work to build muscle. Nervermind that physic abilities can also be trained and improved. Mob is a saint like figure because despite being born with unlimited psychic potential, he does not get anything from it, or at least even a fraction of what he could be getting. Instead he diligently tries to improve his physcial strength without ever really improving significantly, which is good. While some people are more naturally gifted at athletics, some are far less, with mob being close to the bottom. The show never shows people taking advantage of this though. The body building club is comprised of sage-like, no-earthly desires, middle schoolers. Mob wants to improve his body to impress a girl(not for his health), but this girl has never been shown to be attracted to the training itself, just the results. So the message of doing something you're really bad at because it takes more hard work is better than doing something you're really naturally good at, makes no sense.

During one scene, there's a random side character with physic healing powers. Mob has been shown to learn new abilities instantly before, and there's no reason to think he wouldn't be able to learn how to heal people. There's no reason given as to why he couldn't go from hospital to hospital, curing everybody's cancer and whatever else. This would both be a very "moral" thing to do with his powers, something only he could do just because of his natural ability, and would get him heaps upon heaps of praise and whatever else he wanted. This never happens though because it would completely shatter the already fragile themes.

Post edited on 12th Jul 2020, 8:42pm

>>33787
I assume he's talking about how rural areas are in reality full of back-breaking and soul-crushing labor just like anything else in a fully industrial society. Rural areas ARE more pleasant for the retired, or for those who simply live there, but the truth is no workplace will ever be "comfy". And if you leave in the country, and aren't retired, you probably work there. It's hot, tiresome, monotonous work, and unless you're a real fitness buff that just sucks.

>>34456
>It's hot, tiresome, monotonous work, and unless you're a real fitness buff that just sucks.

I don't think I have met a fit farmer, most of them are middle aged or older with a beer belly and even some of the younger ones I know are still fat. Yes, it's work and all work is awful but farming isn't actually difficult.

>>33786
Do you live in Japan?

>>33815
It's more unrealistic to think that other people give a damn about you and your troubles and is willing yo go out of their way to help you achieve your objective.

>>34459
Realism isn't necessarily needed to tell a good story. Antagonists often give multiple people a reason to dislike them.

Death and killing being avoided no matter the circumstances. It's cancerous, in the most literal sense of the word.
Happens constantly but an example that is most in my mind right now:
How refreshing and completely justified would it have been to just kill Yukine in Noragami?
Lost cases do exist.

>>34461
I liked how Trigun dealt with that, with an MC following that rule but suffering the incredible because of it, and finally breaking it just because his enemy wanted him to suffer even more.

This is in a lot of media not only anime, but I hate how there is always a 'good' side and then there is a 'bad' side. In real life, the line between who or what is much more grey and I'd love for an anime to address that. For example, a 'righteous' MC fighting for what he believes is right ends up either succumbing to his sinful imperfect nature or realizing that his objective-what he is fighting for, isn't exactly the most altruist, moralistic cause. Also, a lot of media may make the villain more human (sob-story of a past), but I would love to see a villain that turns out to actually be right, or, at least, very legitimate in his argument/ defense for his actions. I haven't watched it yet, but someone told me LOTGH fulfills this criteria.

This is a more common one but I will still mention it: I hate this 'friendship is magic' crap that a lot of anime and other media tends to do. I can agree with the fact that collectively, people are able to commit to more, however the way it is frequently presented makes it seem quite fantastical and unrealistic. Working with other does not ensure a definite win or accomplishment. Relying on people doesn't not always improve the situation. This is why I disliked the ending of Higurashi so much (The VN). The first 5 or 6 chapters were great. But then it started getting into this 'friendship will help us through' plot pandering crap that ruined the experienced for me.

>>34464
>For example, a 'righteous' MC fighting for what he believes is right ends up either succumbing to his sinful imperfect nature or realizing that his objective-what he is fighting for, isn't exactly the most altruist, moralistic cause. Also, a lot of media may make the villain more human (sob-story of a past), but I would love to see a villain that turns out to actually be right, or, at least, very legitimate in his argument/ defense for his actions
Subversion of good vs evil is almost as played out as straightfoward good vs evil. Often there's some racial component where there's an evil race of supernatural beings who actually turn out to not be so bad. Or maybe the villain is actually trying to save the world and maybe the hero has also been tricked. Or maybe the protagonist's idealism ends up being harmful. That's all been done already. Stories where the viewer can choose who to see as the antagonist would actually be different.

>>34464
Moral relativism is about as common as black and white morality. It's all good as long as it makes sense in-universe. Also using Yamaxanadu for a post like that seems ironic.

Post edited on 18th Jul 2020, 9:02pm

>>34464
There's lots of media that don't fall for those topics. LOGH doesn't have a villain, except some fucks that are the ISIS of their universe, there's two sides with all kinds of people in them. I think you need to be aware about what is the public a product is made for, stuff made for kids and teenagers is going to have more of those kind of things, without taking into consideration it's quality. Also sometimes good vs evil can be perfectly fine too, see The Lord of the Rings, or Star Wars, etc.

the whole otoko janai meme