western countries don't exactly have ideal schooling...

>>15388
Yes, it was all about pressure for me. The pressure came from myself, I wanted to get the top mark and become a happy little worker bee in a business suit earning the big bucks. Look where I am now. The guilt of failing growing bigger and bigger as the weight of my wasted years piles on, it becomes harder and harder to admit I'm wrong and just start over and just admit I wasted all my time.

I am inferior the to rest of the pack, have realized it in the last few years in highschool.

And i don't want exactly to be a burgerflipper.

I am 27 now, and i will leech as long as possible from my mother, until she calls the police to kick me out.

Then i am gonna become homeless.

>>15390
At least it sounds like your parents were alright though. Some parents teach you that you have an innate value at the base level from your character, actions no matter how small and just the person you are. Others teach you that your value is derived only from comparing yourself to others and material measures. That is, how much money you make, what kind of a car you drive and house you have versus the other kids they arbitrarily select as yardsticks for you.

>The average age of hikikomori also seems to have risen over the last two decades. Before it was 21 - now it is 32.
Well, most brohnos were 21 when /tc/ started...
But no, seriously: my impression is that is going both ways. At the late 90's most known hiki were guys in her late teens who had failed either high school or college exams, becoming ronin NEET; they indeed started to get noticed because some of their parents asked for help, but I'm sure there was already a fair amount of 30+ year old men who became hiki out of rising unemployment and whose enablers would never talk about because of shame. Also, many kids in elementary and middle school seem to have started to seclude themselves either because of bullying or academical pressure at school (traumatic intensive courses for underachievers). Finally, there is the collapse in Japan's birth rates and high peek in celibacy: 40% of japanese men on their 20´s are currently virgins; young men have grown either unable or unwilling to lead the (endlessly disappointing) romantic and familiar life over which society builds itself, therefore lacking on motivation to go out at all; at the same time, fast speed internet now provides with most of the stimuli they need right in their rooms (and children get into technology more and more early). So it's fair to infer that Japan has now hikikomori of all ages.

>Neets, freeters, hikikomori - these were ways of describing the good-for-nothing younger generation, parasites on the flagging Japanese economy. The older generation, who graduated and slotted into steady careers in the 1960s and 1970s, could not relate to them.
I do think the hikikomori phenomenon is spreading into occident, absolutely, but just at the same speed at which japanese pop/otaku culture (the main label holders, including MMORPG addict gamers) has done it and of course not as much as the NEET phenomenon as a whole (I mean, there sure are hordes of NEET out there, but not that much locked in their rooms). However, insanely enough, I do not necessarly see this as a social tragedy; sometimes I like to think that, although quite unconsciously, herbivore men have started a sort of Lennon-esque "bed-in" massive protest against the social order based on family that had prevailed on Earth over the years; if ever becoming widespread, I imagine this as a coin tossing moment that can lead either to our extinction or evolution as sentient beings, no longer bounded to sexual reproduction and the biological condition in general. But I don't think any of us will live on to see that new age, if ever coming at all.

>Hikikomori are seen as predominantly male... However, an internet survey by NHK found just 53% to be male
Actual female hikikomori, just like 3DPDs in general, remain an utter mystery to me. My best guess is that they partake on it merely as an extension of the fujoshi label, within the general men-surrogate possible roles for women in postmodern age... i.e. that hikikomori is really just a male phenomenon, with no female niche specificity at all; but I'm interested into hearing other opinions about it.

>"I think my son is losing the power or desire to do what he wants to do"... "Maybe he used to have something he wanted to do but I think I ruined it."
Yes indeed: I think this is pretty much what happens. Thought it's not necessarly the parents fault, but society's as a whole: people no longer having dreams within the expectations of the previous generations, might be due to us entering a new stage that needs new values and mechanisms if it doesn't want to collapse under its own lethargy. The cause of it all (IMO): the current disparity between our scientific/technological growth and our philosophical/moral tools to handle it.

>what caused them to be shut in?

>>15400
Yeah, that part is horseshit. If anything, hiki are better known for becoming murderers (of their family), not sexual offenders

>especially manga cartoons and anime
>In press coverage, both otaku and hikikomori have been linked with serious sex crimes

Typical BBC level of journalism. Of course people who are holed up in their homes which they never leave are bound to be raptists who prowl the streets in search of easy prey on daily basis.

>>15401 originally quoted >>15402, my bad for deleting my post.

>>15402
But they have. The reason its mentioned is because its ridiculous.

>>15407
Normals also commit crimes, and not only that but they perpetuate the culture that crime thrives in since they are the majority. It's sensationalism to mention it here.

>>15402
>>15424
>in press coverage
They didn't say it was fact. They said it was covered by the press. Guess what, it is! It has been! It always will be! Hikkis are easy targets to make a big deal out of because they're a miniscule minority.

Typical BBC level of journalism is stating facts apparently.

>>15532

>Typical BBC level of journalism is stating facts apparently.

They didn't make it up but it's barely related to the article. It's pure sensationalism and nothing else; it has absolutely nothing to do with objective journalism.
Next thing you know BBC will report stories from garbage tabloids like The Sun and act as if they couldn't be more accurate.

Also I still fail to see how someone who is holed up in his home could be a sex offender. The 'best' a hikki could do is raping his own mother.
Unless 'serious sex crimes' means 'harming fictional children'. And considering the overall lack of proffesionalism I wouldn't be the least bit surprised if that's what they really meant.

>>15395
>However, insanely enough, I do not necessarly see this as a social tragedy; sometimes I like to think that, although quite unconsciously, herbivore men have started a sort of Lennon-esque "bed-in" massive protest against the social order based on family that had prevailed on Earth over the years; if ever becoming widespread, I imagine this as a coin tossing moment that can lead either to our extinction or evolution as sentient beings, no longer bounded to sexual reproduction and the biological condition in general. But I don't think any of us will live on to see that new age, if ever coming at all.

the MGTOW movement?

>>15395
> The cause of it all (IMO): the current disparity between our scientific/technological growth and our philosophical/moral tools to handle it.
sure anomie but not that that ideas aren't there but more that the culture is lagging; ideas learned via media are incompatible, etc, then ofc you can see the compounding issue

>>15395
>Actual female hikikomori, just like 3DPDs in general, remain an utter mystery to me. My best guess is that they partake on it merely as an extension of the fujoshi label, within the general men-surrogate possible roles for women in postmodern age... i.e. that hikikomori is really just a male phenomenon, with no female niche specificity at all; but I'm interested into hearing other opinions about it.
You're under the assumption that women can achieve an easy life because they are women. Not every women is beautiful and not every women has good mental health. The female hikkis are just like the male ones: social outcasts who may or may not have mental stability.

Males who don't "make the cut" typically shut themselves off. Just look around this place to get an idea of what I mean.
Females are the same. Not every female "makes the cut" simply because they're female.
Females who don't want to put in the extreme effort it takes will end up the same as males who don't put in that extreme effort.

>>15721
>You're under the assumption that women can achieve an easy life because they are women. Not every women is beautiful
Most men out there will take whatever they can get.

>>15722
But males are a finite resource.

Let's say there are 100 men and 100 women.
If 10 men seclude themselves, 10 girls will be left alone, reasonably enough the "worst" without a man.

I know it's a very simplified example.

>>15723
That is compensated for in Asia with a traditional preference for sons. There's clear imbalance in China. Even surrounding countries without draconian birth restrictions have lots of backwards people in the country who think raising a daughter isn't worth the effort since only sons make strong farmhands and shit.

>>15721
In western society, it's incredibly difficult for any female to become a "social outcast", even if she's not physically attractive or has severe mental issues.

>>15723
It's not that simple. Like it or not, the current generation (those in their 20s and 30s) in modern society runs on a hypergamous system. The phrase "80 percent of the women date 20 percent of the men" is an exaggeration, but not by as much as you'd expect. Females, not males, are the ones held in high regard- to the point where men will throw each other under the bus and dedicate nigh the entirety of their free time to researching tactics to increase their appeal to the opposite sex. Females simply do not need to do this, because they *are* the center of the sexual and dating system. A less appealing female, at worst, will have a smaller pool of men to choose from- those seen as less desirable by her peers. Most of the females that have secluded themselves are not virgins, and merely dislike their limited choices. I'm not saying there's literally no such thing as a female suffering from legitimate social-sexual seclusion, but it's incredibly rare in western society. What >>15722 said holds true even among most Ford Driver guys today, not just males with 'outcast' traits.

>>15725
It's probably more rare than males but there are definitely some out there. If you're terribly ugly and crazy enough, even sub-par guys will know to leave you alone. Don't stick dick in crazy is an age old adage. There's a threshold of crazy where everyone will back off.

>>15726
Yeah, that's true enough...though I'd still say that they're a LOT more rare. Even the most introverted girls manage to attract a lot of attention from males, blessed by the fact that males are the ones socially expected to approach their potential mates first. Introverted males (ie: the overwhelming majority of hikikomori) however, are almost always out of luck. From what I've seen the majority of them will try even against their own nature, but they're simply not seen as desirable enough to compete with their peers, and eventually give up.

>>15727
Wouldn't say that for all introverted males by far. It's only the ones that don't cut it in any aspect - social skills, personality, wealth/standing that are passed up all the time. Quite a few introverts do work in well regarded professions (engineering, medicine, law, finance etc.) that pay very well. Just because you're shy doesn't mean you're not a good person inside either. Those two other criteria can compensate for their lack of smooth-talking popularity skills. It's finding a good girl that's hard at that point.

>>15723
>10 girls will be left alone
They'd just share, we both know plenty of women don't mind sharing a guy if he's rich but the same can't be said for most men. and I think you're forgetting men outnumber women in some countries, take china for instance.

>>15724
>people in the country who think raising a daughter isn't worth the effort since only sons make strong farmhands and shit.
How is that backwards? it's completely true. it's not a matter of sexism or opinion that women are less suitable for hard demanding labor, it's a simple fact. Whats backwards is expecting people to raise worthless leach who wont contribute anything to parents that need all the help they can get.

Do you think women rarely work on oil rigs or in coal mines becuase they're not allowed to or something? They don't work those type of jobs because they don't want to or literally can't work many of those dirty dangerous physically exhausting jobs men are expected to do.

>>15728
>Quite a few introverts do work in well regarded professions (engineering, medicine, law, finance etc.) that pay very well.

That's a stereotype; the vast majority end up in shitty minimum wage jobs (or unemployed) with the rest of society. For the ones that go through the effort to go through college and have solid connections through friends and family, yes, they can manage to attract some gold diggers with a high-paying job.

>Just because you're shy doesn't mean you're not a good person inside either
True, but that doesn't help you at all if you're looking to attract a mate. In fact, it's a detriment. "Nice guys" have always had a terrible reputation among 3DPDs of all walks of life.

>>15731
Introverts make up the majority of the gifted population. Introversion by definition does not automatically mean shy or unable to properly interact in social situations. Just that being with people for too long or too many people is draining. I think you may be confusing that definition. There are fields that are introvert-friendly and in demand so the outlook really isn't that bleak. It's no surprise though that the ones who don't put in any effort will end up in poor jobs. That's true for introverts and extroverts. You can't just blame a complete failure at life (nevermind just unable to get a girl) on introversion alone.

>>15722
You're under the assumption that women will also take whatever they can get without standard.

Yes, a girl who is ugly on the outside as well as inside could get a male somewhere someway. But why would she? The only people who would want her are people who are worse off than her. She'd be better off on her own than being in a relationship with a guy like that.
Do you really think a girl would choose one of us on /so/ over being independent? I don't think she would.

>>15725
It's also harder for men in western society to become hikkis as well though. The cultural standards that help facilitate hikkis don't exist at all in North America and most parts of Europe.
Even socially it's harder for both males and females to be rejected in western society. Their is always a subgroup or subculture or clique that people fit into due to the extreme push for expressing yourself in western countries. People who don't fit into even one group for their entire life are rare for both males and females. I do think that more males than females shut themselves off in western society, which I can't give any scientific explanation for. My mildy-educated theory is that females just like to fit in more and be a part of the group which leads them to try harder to fit in than a socially misfit boy would.

>>15733
> The only people who would want her are people who are worse off than her.
Whenever I leave my house I always see tons of perfectly decent men stuck with land whales. Men will take whatever they can get. They wont hold out for better when there is none. girls who are ugly on the outside as well as inside are commonplace, the norm. Men aren't picky because they can't be not because there's something wrong with them.

>>15732
You're only looking at half of the coin.

>Introverts make up the majority of the gifted population.
This is a true statement, but they also make up the majority of the population with mental illnesses. I'm aware that almost every famous genius and inventor in history has been an introvert, but those men are a far cry from the rule.

>Just that being with people for too long or too many people is draining.
You'd be hard pressed to find a single female on this Earth that this wouldn't raise a gigantic red flag with, even if it doesn't signify an outright most-extreme-scenario social phobia (which I never intended to imply in the first place, mind you).

>It's no surprise though that the ones who don't put in any effort will end up in poor jobs
Extroverts typically have much more motivation and ambition than introverts, with or without their 'gifted' intellect. It's no excuse for introverts not to try, but the mental illnesses mentioned above often impede or even halt their social and occupational progress.

>You can't just blame a complete failure at life (nevermind just unable to get a girl) on introversion alone.
Certainly not, but if you take a look at all of the hikikomori 'failures', every single one of them shares the trait of introversion.

On another note, I have to ask why someone that adamantly supports 3D relationships and appears to dislike hikikomoris is here. If my assumptions are wrong, feel free to correct me.

>>15734
Just because a girl is fat doesn't mean she is ugly. Some people like girls with some extra fat. You also can't judge her personality by looking at her. She might be the love of his life with a heart of gold. I'm sure some people do settle for less, but a decent guy can get a decent girl if he tries and doesn't need to settle for less if he doesn't want to.

>girls who are ugly on the outside as well as inside are commonplace, the norm
You must have pretty high standards if you don't think the norm for your average modern female is pretty by normal standards. Putting tastes aside, most females try hard to look good and achieve it in the average male's eyes. Far more girls look good than bad, it's part of the culture to go over the top when it comes to beauty, especially so for women.

>>15737
>Just because a girl is fat doesn't mean she is ugly
Both the average male and average woman find extra weight to be unattractive on the opposite sex in our culture. You can't use the exception to the rule to justify everything as acceptable when talking in terms of averages.

>most females try hard to look good and achieve it in the average male's eyes
You're right - and it's a repugnant personality trait.

>Far more girls look good than bad, it's part of the culture to go over the top when it comes to beauty, especially so for women.
Yet it's really unnecessary, because women are the ones that primarily get to choose their mates in our culture, not vise-versa. They simply wait for any varying number of suitors to approach them and court them, and choose between them. Their personality will make a bigger difference than their appearance will in determining the quality of males they have to choose from.

>>15735
There's a difference between 3D relationships being undesirable and overrated versus being 100% absolutely unattainable. The latter short-changes introverts too much. Whether they want to forge those links is the question. I have no clue where you're getting the extroverts inherently have more motivation and ambition than introverts either. Anyone can be 'ambitious' by simply having big dreams or delusions. It's more a question of applying motivation properly and efficiently as opposed to just having it. A large amount of positions (customer service, politics/PR, marketing etc.) are extrovert oriented and not efficient for introverts to apply themselves there. They have to put in more effort for the same results. Focusing themselves on friendlier niches (scientific research, engineering, IT etc.) will see a much bigger return for a given amount of motivation/effort. Demands for prolonged concentration and technical individual work give introverts the edge. Sure the positions are in the minority but introverts are also the minority too so they don't need 90% of society's positions being tailored for them in the first place.

>>15737
>Just because a girl is fat doesn't mean she is ugly. Some people like girls with some extra fat.
And just because a girl has half her face burned off with a blow torch doesn't mean she is ugly, some people are into that.

>>15744
>There's a difference between 3D relationships being undesirable and overrated versus being 100% absolutely unattainable. The latter short-changes introverts too much.
That was the point in the first place, though it's not much of a problem for female introverts- being in a system where they don't have to put any effort into attaining a relationship.

>I have no clue where you're getting the extroverts inherently have more motivation and ambition than introverts either.
Are you serious about this? Introverts are well-documented as being much more prone to apathy, depression, and having motivational problems than their "normal" peers, as well as having a markedly lower stress tolerence threshold.

I have no clue where you got the idea that introverts are basically just hyperintelligent versions of extroverts that socialize a bit less with no downsides, but it's simply not accurate. Many introverts aren't a hell of a lot smarter than their peers, and even the ones that are tend to have a much more difficult time than extroverts integrating into society. It's not impossible, but sadly, as you said, the vast majority of people are extroverts, and society is custom-tailored to the needs of the majority- NOT introverts. Being intelligent doesn't mean you just warp into a six figure job. There are plenty of introverts that either lack the motivation or don't want to go through the incredibly heavy socialization required to grind through college and search for connections just for a chance at a good job in a currently poor job market. And this is all assuming the introvert in question IS highly intelligent and isn't suffering from severe social anxiety or another mental problem that would cripple them here- an unlikely scenario, given how frequently mental illnesses plague them.

tl;dr: Introverts will always have to work much harder to find a place in a society built around extroverts (the majority). They are not just smarter versions of extroverts that don't go to parties.

>>15722
That's fair enough but I'm starting to think with the family law system and the degraded institute of marriage the way it is, a growing number of men who would otherwise be able to settle down with mates don't consider it anymore. It's all just about sex and flings now. And of course you can just pay for those things. Single adults now make up the majority in many countries and the proportion continues to grow.

>>15761
>the family law system and the degraded institute of marriage
Yeah and who's fault is that?
here's a hint: women don't have to worry about paying child support or losing half of their estate after a divorce.

>>15762
Frankly the ones who give up power, who show mercy are also to blame for doing that in the first place. Especially if the other party takes a mile instead of an inch or views generosity as weakness. You wonder why some traditional cultures try so hard to stay that way instead of opening the floodgates?

The point really was just that marriage and M-F relationships are nothing to extremely envy really. What most people have - sex and flings - can be attained by any introvert and they don't even have to be close to rich. You might have to pay a premium if you're terribly ugly though heh.

I don't know what caused me to be a shut-in. I had plenty of friends in high school, but afterschool hours, I didn't know how to act socially. I rarely went out, and when I did, I could never add more than a few words to a conversation. Only one or two friendships lasted for about 6 months after graduation, and during that time I just became more and more anxious, I don't really know why. Eventually, just the thought of being in a social situation scared me shitless, and I cut off all contact with my friends.

>>15763
>You wonder why some traditional cultures try so hard to stay that way instead of opening the floodgates?

Social chaos, war and a strong backlash to "preserve their traditions". Remember how the American South was from the 1950s to......actually even now? It's because they were still industrializing and becoming a first world country even then, and it took a while for their society to semi-change. At least Argentina was better in this sort of thing when they were doing a similar thing......

>>15730
Working in a rice field is a bit different than working in a coal mine, your statements are disingenous in that regards.

>>15725
>The phrase "80 percent of the women date 20 percent of the men" is an exaggeration, but not by as much as you'd expect.

I suspect it's because they actively work on things to "Attract women" like specific bullshit abilities for bitches, gaining/losing weight, dressing well, etc. Or something as 'simple' as hitting on everything that moves. Some PUA suggested that basically everyone in the 'party' scene fucks each other and that's a small part of all people. :/

>Females, not males, are the ones held in high regard-

You can argue "Rape culture" suggests otherwise, and I am not a strong supporter for such a term as 'rape culture' (partially due to I guess making rape jokes....)

>Females simply do not need to do this, because they *are* the center of the sexual and dating system. A less appealing female, at worst, will have a smaller pool of men to choose from- those seen as less desirable by her peers.

http://www.xojane.com/it-happened-to-me/it-happened-to-me-i-was-a-female-pick-up-artist

Now imagine if you have really lopsided gender ratios like say if a war happened....

>>15730
>Do you think women rarely work on oil rigs or in coal mines becuase they're not allowed to or something?

basically, yeah. the culture discourages them. I think thats a larger factor than physical differences between the sexes.

>>15915
Especially given 'modern' oil rigs are all electronic push-a-button things with little dirtiness....

>>15915
There you go with those self-serving delusions of persecution again. Women are far from discouraged from doing anything in first world countries- in fact, they're encouraged even moreso to do jobs that are traditionally masculine to "even out the ratio" (see: the feminists pushing to allow female infantry in the US army- even at a large cost to military efficiency). Affirmative action laws even require that a certain percentage of employees in businesses and organizations of a certain size MUST be female. If anything is 'not allowed', it's speaking out against their special treatment publicly.

Did you ever stop and think that maybe the overwhelming majority of women don't want to work in low paying hard labor jobs? Probably not.

Post edited on 6th Sep 2013, 12:03pm

>>15918

>see: the feminists pushing to allow female infantry in the US army- even at a large cost to military efficiency

Wish I could find that article but my google-fu/memory simply failed me.

And by that article I mean one about city [x] where they lowered requirements for firemen because women weren't strong enough break down a door and of course somebody had the guts to scream 'SEXISM!'.
Nevermind the fact that actual doors won't just open themselves in case of fires and people inside will burn alive.
Next thing you know it'll be door manufacturer's fault - why did he make those doors so durable? Sexism! Think about female thieves Haruhidammit!

>>15919
I remember that article too. I think it was mentioned in here before some time ago.

>>15714
I just checked them. It looks somewhat interesting, though a bit simplistic for my taste; apparently they're more like jerks who want pussy without getting any trouble, rather than advocates of a whole new and sexless world (as I am). But I'll sure give their ideas some more thought.

Post edited on 9th Sep 2013, 9:14pm

>>15940
>It looks somewhat interesting, though a bit simplistic for my taste; apparently they're more like jerks who want pussy without getting any trouble, rather than advocates of a whole new and sexless world (as I am).

I checked their official website last night out of curiosity, but I'm not sure where you got that impression from. According to them, the higher levels of "MGTOWs" reject all relations with females (including sexual ones). The description for level two matched my stance on 3Ds very accurately; something about completely casting aside social ties with them, from romantic relationships to even friendships, and limiting interaction with them to a professional level only.

They don't seem strongly anti-sex, though I personally would agree with your views that the modern world would be better off without it.

>>15733
>The cultural standards that help facilitate hikkis don't exist at all in North America and most parts of Europe.
This is an entirely groundless assumption.

>>15399

Where on Earth did you find this? This describes my mindset to a T.

>>15970
Wrote it here long ago (the thread died together with the previous ib4f server). Glad we agree.