I think to people that have not seen eva, rei seems like the most likely to be depressed and suicidal.
From an outside perspective, the other eva characters all probably seem relatively normal.

Digression: I always felt that the advantage of articles published in 'net over those intended for print is the ability to cover the topic extensively. You're not limited to 2 pages and forced to somehow squeeze all the information there. Then again, this article doesn't contain much information despite being rather long.

>Logging on to the popular Japanese Web site 2Channel any night of the week

2Channel gold acount? I can't decide whether he tries really hard to make the article more accessible to average western reader ('samurai warriors', 'cartoons') or is plain misinformed. Further examples: 'animator Hideaki Anno' (well yeah, Anno sometimes works on animation but that's not exactly what he's known for), 'spawning the madly obsessive—and immensely profitable—otaku subculture' (that's about Eva), 'geeky fans who spend their lives (...) collecting pornographic comic books featuring the show’s female characters' (this isn't exactly false but it's still hilariously written) etc. And yet he doesn't remove honorifics from cited conversations.



As for the topic... Well, not much to discuss here in my opinion. Like OP already mentioned any of those characters would work but Rei looks empty and apathetic, so the suicide-obsessed people probably can relate to her the most... Well, there's Shinji, too, but he's unable to make any decision and as far as I remember doesn't try to kill himself at any point. He would be the guy who's willing to die but won't do jack's shit about it. And it's no wonder that they wouldn't associate themselves with assertive Asuka or even Kaworu and his openness.

>"The fact that you see salarymen reading manga and pornography on the trains and being unafraid, unashamed or anything, is something you wouldn’t have seen 30 years ago [...] We are a country of children.”

To go on a bit of a tangent, I will never understand people who disrespect their own work in such a broad sense as this. If it's terrible for adults to like the things you make, why would you, an adult, be satisfied with making them in the first place?

>>5082
When did he ever say it's terrible?

>>5082

ANSWER 1: He isn't really criticizing the mang/anime/otaku culture itself, but today's japanese society.

ANSWER 2: There's nothing wrong about keeping a severely critical point of view of your own trade (it's rather commendable).

ANSWER 3: We all know bitching is his (and our?) favourite sport; senior or not, married or not, his motto is to accuse and complain: Criminor, ergo, sum.

ANSWER 4: Ultimately, he is Hideaki mothefucker Anno, author of a landmark masterpiece of its genre. He can bash it or say whatever the fuck he wants about it: he doesn't lack of authority to do so. Maybe when you or me ever do something nearly as good (and create memories and subjects to analyze for everybody), could starting thinking about how to handle it.

It could be interesting to also take a look at this:

"Superflat" is used by Murakami to refer to various flattened forms in Japanese graphic art, animation, pop culture and fine arts, as well as the "shallow emptiness of Japanese consumer culture" [...] Often the works take a critical look at the consumerism and sexual fetishism that is prevalent in post-war Japanese culture. [...] One target of this criticism is lolicon art. [...] These works are an exploration of otaku sexuality through grotesque and/or distorted images. Other works are more concerned with a fear of growing up.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Superflat

I don't know but this really sounds like an aesthical discourse we should be aware of.

Post edited on 11th Jun 2011, 4:12pm

>"We are a country of children.”
In my opinion, this is the most interesting point of the article. Deeming it to be point of the author himself is however a bit far-fetched, as it's a highly subjective opinion from some other guy who made this really populare intellectual piece, which is tied to the topic by some obscure form of reasoning conducted by an ignorant journalist. In other words: I'd give a damn if this article was of better quality.

>>5121

There have been thousands of articles, studies and books about this subject, tho'. Pretty much all of them point out Japan's loss in WWII as the reason behind it.

>>5102
>One target of this criticism is lolicon art
>These works are an exploration of otaku sexuality through grotesque and/or distorted images.
>grotesque and/or distorted

Nope. Fuck that guy and all he stands for. If liking loli is "grotesque," than I'll wear the badge proudly.

>>5124
>If liking loli is "grotesque,"

I think what the paragraph means to say, is that the artists on this movement deliberately turn those otaku references into grotesque in their works, as a way of protest and criticism. But they probably like loli even more than you and me together... wich would turn their critique into a selfcriticism (wich is good/intellectualy healthy).

Post edited on 11th Jun 2011, 6:54pm

>>5074
>>5082
>>5121
>>5123

>>"We are a country of children.”

Funny as MacArthur said to treat all Japanese as if they were 12 years old during the Allied occupation of Japan.

And a Japanese diplomat told a US friend basically that "westerners make one wrong assumption. They treat the Japanese as rational adults" (that quote was around the time of the Battle of Pearl Harbor if not months before) (its mention in The Decline and Fall of the Japanese Empire)

SO it predated Japan's loss in WW2.

>>5074

also

>>heavy, depressive stoner vibe,

lol. Didnt Gainax admit to making that show while on weed? I remember some show's creators did as such

>spawning the madly obsessive—and immensely profitable—otaku subculture embraced by tens of thousands

More like hundreds of thousands, or millions from a worldwide POV. And it wasn't spawned it was catered to.

I loved the last page of the article, with the former Red Army Commander who ended up talking to hikikiomori and NEET. For those unaware, this is like some black panther or Irish Republican Army member from 'The Troubles' going to talk to shutins and NEETs and autistic people in black america or Ireland. Okay, not the best analogy.

But that's just fucking awesome still, the intersection of two radically different cultures like that. Or maybe they're not so different (see the Socialist Patients Collective - mentally ill people who began 'terrorist attacks' with the RAF in [west] Germany)

Reading this article makes me wish we had dedicated suicide boards in the west. That would be pretty swell.

I think it's hilarious how much emphasis they place on a fucking TV Show.

I bet somewhere in Japan, someone has written an article on the impact Fresh prince of belair had on American youth.

They're looking for something that isn't there, and tying in anything they can. Just grasping at straws.

>>5215
A much better comparison would be a Japnese person writing an essay on the effects of Family Guy. They're both cartoons, yes, but they're incredibly influential ones.

>>5163
I looked up the article just to read that, it was hilarious. What was he doing there anyway...?
But I think it's great. Today's youth won't be terrorists, despite how much these old guys are pushing us. We're not really beyond that but... different I guess.

A lot of people watched and liked EVA, even people who don't really watch anime. I know SMAP mentioned it during an interview, and even though they were saying "OH but we're not otaku!" they talked about how it was so interesting. And these are some of the most scrutinized men in Japan.

I thought that Anno's comments were about something different... ohwell. It feels familiar. Even in America there is a large tendency to encourage vapid stupidity and unquestioning acceptance of "Big Daddy".

MOE is a product of our times~ the souls of our fire~

I don't think the suicide rate is any higher than it was before either. In years prior it was likely under-reported because of heavy stigma, and now it is sensationalized.

>>5252

>In years prior it was likely under-reported because of heavy stigma

Can't see it happening it Japan. I remember reading a story about a train operator working on the Tōkaidō Shinkansen line (various reports state that the average yearly delay is somewhere around half a minute, I saw statistic that placed it below 10s). He fucked up and caused a delay that dragged down all the following trains, too. Few days later he committed suicide. In the interview his parents' said they are glad he did that as he restored the honor of the family by doing so. If only our politicians could abide such simple rules...

I can imagine that most Japs believe that NEETs and other social scum should just commit suicide as they put a strain on economy and resourced are simply wasted on them even though you can't expect anything in return.

When it comes to suicide the mindset of average Westerner and Asian (in particular Japanese) is completely different.

>>5204

there -are- dedcates suicide boards in "Western" countries....

>>5242
Getting crazy, I'd even say that Eva could be, to japanese/otaku culture, like the Simpsons in the west... the TV Bible for an entire generation.

>>5252
>MOE is a product of our times~
No more comments.

Post edited on 14th Jun 2011, 1:38pm

>>5128
actually, some of Murakami's Superflat friends ARE loli artists, or at least have drawn unironic loli porn before and after their superflat works were featured in art galleries; Henmaru Machino is one of them (he's mostly known for surreal gross-out stuff like THE HOLES but he's done some pretty generic loli porn too). so to paint those pictures as some kind of anti-loli diatribe as opposed to just a parody (or perhaps a self parody) is completely unfitting. hell Murakami even supported a self-described "lolicon" (who doesn't view loli art as harmful, but as a way for people like him to live out their fantasies without harming others) throughout his career and spoke out against the loli ban so it's not like he's inherently against shit like that

I actually added a line about that, but some guy on Wikipedia edited it back funnily enough. Western Superflat fans have this idea that the movement is ANTI-LOLI, ANTI-MOE, ANTI-CONSUMERISM and they won't let the facts get in the way of that

>>5426
Did you have a reference?

>>5429
well beyond the pictures machino drew there is this interview with a guy that Murakami has supported over the years http://www.hintmag.com/artcrawl/artcrawl.php

just... read it, it's honestly hilarious.

>>5433
>How about your painting with the girl sitting in the countryside with a bento box? You can almost see up her skirt.

>It's about an older man who takes this girl from her neighborhood to go on a picnic. And that older man is me. I guess it's like a kidnapping.

Wwww. What an awesome guy. I'd be absolutely fucking terrified to say stuff like that about the things I enjoy and like. That Mr. is actually pretty Haruhidamn brave.

>>5288
I see what you're talking about and you're right. I am thinking of a different kind of suicide however, the one that comes after depression. People do not want to admit that their family members were mentally ill.

>>5446

>I am thinking of a different kind of suicide however

My point stands. In Asia suicide doesn't cause reactions as extreme as it does here, no matter what's the reason behind it. We live in the highly individualistic West whereas Asia is a community-oriented area where 'sacrificing' an individual for 'greater good' is not exactly a terrifying idea.

Individuals with suicide tendencies are 'defective' (not always but let's go with it as a rule of thumb) from pretty much all possible viewpoints: economically, socially, even genetically. It's not Western viewpoint that you should consider 'normal' here: no matter how you look at it we're still animals and I don't think there's any species that wouldn't get rid of such unwanted and useless element.

>>5446
the funny part is that Murakami has supported this guy throughout his career a lot... and yet people still claim that superflat as a whole is commonly (among other things) some kind of 'criticism of loli' and meant to portray it as something intensely horrifying

people who are into superflat are often clueless as hell, most likely because of the retarded english Wikipedia entry for Superflat. and the worst part? the Japanese Wikipedia's entry was actually translated word for word to Japanese straight from the ignorant the English one.

I've been trying to edit it in some ways to make it a little less moronic and biased but it's an old article and the downright wrong preconceptions about it are already present everywhere

>>5459
Suicide horrifies people in asia too. It's just more common there. A mother or father losing their son or daughter to themself is still subjectively one of the worst things imaginable.

>>5465

Of course it does. But you're talking about close relatives and I was talking about society in general. Suicide is sensationalized in Western media because of our world view: we value (or rather pretend to) each life whereas Asians are more 'objective'. For example if a soldier were to be captured during war the Western policy is to at least try to free him, even though by doing so you're risking more lives. People let the emotions rule them even though soldiers [b]will[/n] die at war - it's unavoidable. The correct (from tactical viewpoint) decision would be to forget about it and get over it. I have no idea how it really looks but I'd assume that even today some Asian armies would do so. If not I'd have to say it's the result of them being 'westernized'. Everybody was shocked when kamikaze crashed their planes into ships during WWII. How can somebody do something like that?

This is probably the result of how our society worked throughout history. Up until early 20th century Japan was pretty much feudal. Everybody knew their place and there was almost no way to better one's position. The best you could was to accept your place and do your best not to lose it. Even today feudal inclinations are clearly visible in daily life of average Jap (think senpai/kouhai dynamics for example). USA on the other hand is a country founded by people whose ancestors were the unsettled Europeans who didn't want to conform the norm. People whose religion wasn't accepted, people whose world view wasn't accepted, criminals, 'adventurers' and other 'societal scum' decided to look for a better place overseas. Going back to Japan they had people whose greatest values were honor and pride; they had (and some still have) an astonishing sense of duty. The point is at heart we are anarchist whereas Asians feel like they are cogs of society and feel obliged to do what's expected from them.

Because really, even if someone would commit the most vile crimes I'd expect his family to try to justify his actions, to get a good lawyer to defend him etc. I don't think you'd find anyone here who'd say 'I'm glad my son committed suicide as by doing so he restored honor of our family; causing a 1 minute delay is absolutely unforgivable'.

Talking about Murakami's public image...

>>5506
How would you go about "rescuing captured soliders" in a war anyway.

>Everybody was shocked when kamikaze crashed their planes into ships during WWII. How can somebody do something like that?
That's because the USA didn't lose the war and the media acted accordingly.

>Up until early 20th century Japan was pretty much feudal. Everybody knew their place and there was almost no way to better one's position.
That's bullshit in a way, especially to argue current day national identity on a personal level.
(Okay, it contrasts nicely with ideals the USA was built on.)
(It also works well as basis for plutocratic agendas, but that's a different story)

Post edited on 1st Jul 2011, 1:37pm

>>5762

>How would you go about "rescuing captured soliders" in a war anyway.

I'm not sure I understand what you're trying to ask. Then again it's probably just because I phrased something weirdly (there's that typo, too, but I think you got that much). Let's try again.

When an army figures out where it's soldiers are held captive they usually find some way to do free them, even though there's big risk involved and then potential rewards (disregarding the fact that we're talking about human beings here) are sometimes way too low from strategical viewpoint.

I'd feel stupid about mentioning a movie when discussing something like this if not for the fact that Black Hawk Down is based on facts. It's a good example for what I'm trying to convey - rescuing a single (? were there more? I don't remember, I saw it around the time it was released) captive soldier while endangering several others is not exactly the best idea (again, we're talking strategy here).

>That's because the USA didn't lose the war and the media acted accordingly.

I wasn't talking about the media, tho' (well, not only). Heck, even American soldiers themselves were disoriented when Japs came up with this. Of course the fact that most kamikaze were students who were pretty much forced to do what they did is something that changes how people view the whole situation but even today only few people know about it and most assume those were deeds by fearless Japanese soldiers who were more than willing to die to protect their country.

>That's bullshit in a way.

Depends. Would you be satisfied if I said 'until halfway through 19th century'? Because I don't think you can make a case proving it wasn't until the Meiji era that things started to change around there and even then that's only because Japan came into contact with 'Western worldview'.

>especially to argue current day national identity on a personal level.

Of course most of common folk (probably) weren't even aware they are 'Japanese' back then or what 'being Japanese' means at all. Doesn't change the way the country worked. Not like European peasants understood that they are part of a nation. They just knew that they've got to pay insane 'taxes' and do what they're told to, otherwise they will be in some deep shit. For them their nationality meant nothing as they would suffer equally no matter where they lived.

>>5768
>About how the USA do warfare
Ask yourself why they are at war to begin with.
>are sometimes way too low from strategical viewpoint.
They aren't too low from a strategical point of view, as long as the USA has the resources, and they are at war as a kind of welfare to begin with.
>media
this goes back to resources. If you had 100 people to kill 10 thousand, or else your country gets enslaved, opinions change. If you have the media tell you that constantly and are an idiot, opinions change too.

>Depends. Would you be satisfied if I said 'until halfway through 19th century'? Because I don't think you can make a case proving it wasn't until the Meiji era that things started to change around there and even then that's only because Japan came into contact with 'Western worldview'.
I like the part where throughout japanese history, power was constantly shifting between wariors, temples, royalty.
Farmers weren't exactly the most educated of course, huh.

That doesn't even begin to explain japanese social norms working on a "if it's not seen it's cool" basis anyway.

On the other hand we have the USA, where there's an uncanny indifference about crime.
As in, most criminals are fabricated by social/economic circumstances
In the stalemate between labor losing its relevance to sustain the economy, and refusal of social elements in economic scemes, there's nothing left for the political elite but to keep the status quo a bit longer (saving banks/enforcing peace with police force)

I guess my point is most people are ignorant, as long as they don't feel personally offended/threatened.

And I just don't see enough Americans get offended when American's die for petty reasons (to derive it from a national identity). It's a matter of how it's presented.

>>5506
>Going back to Japan they had people whose greatest values were honor and pride; they had (and some still have) an astonishing sense of duty.

I don't know. Pretty sure there were just barbarians cutting themselves up with sharp rocks while the rest of the world was flying airplanes and using steam engines. Not to mention all the feudal lords who were constantly assassinated for petty reasons. Doesn't seem like much honor or duty there you're just Romanticizing it, much like many people do with knights in Europe.