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33625 No. 33625 [Edit]
From games, comics, and cartoons, since the late 90s, westerns from America to Europe(especially France for some reason) have attempted to create "anime-like" media. You remember some of these: rwby, totally spies, avatar, teen titans, code lyoko, to name a few. Most of these are made to capitalize on a dying trend, but that's besides the point. These try to copy something more than the artstyle(which is usually a failure). There's some kind of character to otaku media that they're trying to replicate.

Aside from anime largly representing adult-oreiented animation that isn't primarily comedic, there's something else to it, some dynamic. Most people write these "knockoffs" off as shit and that's it, but I want to know, if I were to try to make something with that unique "spirit" to it, wouldn't it just come out the same? Could a westerner capture whatever that thing is so it feels the same?

There's a couple western porn artists which do a really good job, but that's as close as I can think of
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>> No. 34433 [Edit]
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(This was in response to a deleted thread but this one is pretty much the same thing so whatever.)

Westerners have little love for cuteness or beauty and can at times resent it. It conflicts with their culture and art schools punish students who even attempt anime style art. People here don't agree with me on this, but as I've said before this 'proper' teaching method leaves an imprint on western art students that they can't or wont ever get around. I've noticed from speaking to multiple artists about this that there are some things they outright refuse to do or not do with their attempts at anime art, even if the end results end up producing ugly results. A few common things in anime art they refuse to do for example, downplaying or removing noses, avoiding shadows on a character's face, Minimizing lips and not making them look fat, giving characters slender bodies not chubby ones, Giving extra attention to the eyes as that's where people focus. Instead, they feel more details the better while also wanting to stylise the characters to make them look bigger stronger and maybe even more realistic. This is when they're not going full retard like with modern cartoons that look like they're made by 5 year olds so that the focus can be on the fluid animation and excessively expressive thoughts and feelings characters are supposed to be displaying.

Yesterday I was sent to work at a place with hideous art on massive murals across the wall leading to the front entrance. I asked a net buddy who's been to some art school what they thought of it. They agreed some of it was ugly but praised it over all and saw nothing wrong with putting something so hideous in such a prominent public place. To me they feel sloppy and half assed, the people look creepy, the perspectives are all over the place, some items look 3D others 2D, and the details are inconsistent across the image. That said this one in particular is still probably the better of the three murals.
>> No. 34435 [Edit]
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These responses seem somewhat contradictory, or like there's something missing. Even when western artists do learn how to draw from life well and be good craftsmen, they're still not going to produce the same results. Animation is its own ballgame, but with still images, I have my doubts every doujin artists learned things in an academic, rigorous manner, yet it's still got the distinct look that's hard to reproduce. Kenkou Cross for example.
>> No. 34436 [Edit]
File 158553132320.png - (906.21KB , 1009x760 , rei.png )
I'd find a lot of personal value in finding out what this unique "spirit" is.
All the ways they deform faces, use unconventional shapes to express emotion, how the faces look cute regardless of angle, and it all fits together so well. Yet it must be something subtle since even close western imitations look completely off to me.
Liking something and not even being able to describe it is suffering.
unrelated note: thanks to the anon that pointed out I made a duplicate thread about this.
>> No. 34437 [Edit]
I think they're complementary rather than contradictory. The source I quoted (>>34432) discusses more generally the West's loss of interest in hand-drawn animation. Orthogonal to that, however, is the style in which they present their works, which is what >>34433 excellently addresses. Taken together you have the state of western animation today: usually computer animated (which is in and of itself not inherently bad, but when coupled with the lack of understanding of motion and "weight" that Richard Williams laments about in (>>34432) leads to ugly results), and done in a style that eschews cuteness in favor of cheap, lazy, ugly faces.
>> No. 34438 [Edit]
Thread deleter here, sorry.
I feel like it's more of a matter of perception than simple lack of training. Even unskilled pixiv artists still make things that look "right"
it seems even the definition of cute is different though, it puzzles me that many people genuinely find disney characters to be cute.
>> No. 34439 [Edit]
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Let's try and get to the bottom of it. Here's some examples of western artists making an attempt. Try and think what specifically looks off.
>> No. 34440 [Edit]
That's a good idea.
1 3 and 6 I find it hard to comment on because of the style.
4 I won't say anything about style, it's just awful quality.
It's 2 the type of thing that bothers me since it is so close. The eyes are too aligned and not curved around the head? The mouth looks too in front? The hands are really not cute? The outline of the face is too solid?
And 5 just looks low quality, but I don't know if I'm just primed to nitpick right now. It's better than what I was thinking of, things like pic here:
that are way more obvious.
>> No. 34441 [Edit]
File 158554305268.jpg - (68.49KB , 703x949 , 7e0c105ccd4c77be9769327c74087225.jpg )
>It's 2 the type of thing that bothers me
>things like pic here
These were done by the same artist, also this pic. Being in monochrome makes it harder to tell. >>33630 is also based on a western character. I think the artist is south american, if that makes any difference.

Eyes curving around the head is a very good point. How do you think most Japanese artists in this sort of sphere learn to draw? If it's online tutorials and that kind thing, i'd like to those get translated by somebody.

Post edited on 29th Mar 2020, 9:59pm
>> No. 34442 [Edit]
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>How do you think most Japanese artists in this sort of sphere learn to draw
I really think it must stem from childhood education, maybe the kanji develops some sort of brain area.
It isn't just lack of technique.
To demonstrate this let's look at a less skilled japanese artist. Even this still has that neat japanese look.
>> No. 34443 [Edit]
File 158558100072.png - (137.97KB , 483x326 , edit.png )
Does this edit affect your perception of the art in any way?
>> No. 34444 [Edit]
Not him, but having jaggedy comic sans with placeholder looking text does effect my overall perception of the image, yes.
If you mean the drawing itself, it's largely unchanged. Maybe the way you saved it made it slightly more compressed, but I wouldn't really know.
>> No. 34445 [Edit]
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Not really.
I'm just talking about the actual drawings, not an overall thematic esthetic.
>> No. 34446 [Edit]
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>maybe the kanji develops some sort of brain area
What about Koreans and Chinese then? Which would you say is closer to the mark? Koreans for the most part don't know kanji and Hangul is only slightly more complicated than the Roman Alphabet. Top is Chinese, bottom is Korean.
>> No. 34447 [Edit]
File 158558484783.png - (1.20MB , 1604x702 , taiwan-jp.png )
That's a good point. I like the top ones better but they still look odd. I also thought that taiwanese made rabi ribi is way more convincing than stuff from wayforward for example.
I'm at a loss then, no matter how close these modern attempts from other countries get (with decades of japanese stuff as reference) the fact is that the japanese had that unique look since almost half a century ago, and every artist there picked up on it quite quickly.
>> No. 34448 [Edit]
File 158558488754.png - (195.05KB , 800x1179 , EPXipT_VUAAvTlZ.png )
They have this distinct Chinese/Korean look but it's still somewhat closer to Japanese style compared to your usual Western attempts (thick lines, "Western" nose syndrome and coloring/shading).

Picture related is from one of Katawa Shoujo artists.
>> No. 34449 [Edit]
File 158558513340.jpg - (296.88KB , 735x1080 , 735px-De_pruimenboomgaard_te_Kameido-Rijksmuseum_R.jpg )
Reminds me of this:

'I envy the Japanese the extreme clarity that everything in their work has. It's never dull, and never appears to be done too hastily. Their work is as simple as breathing, and they do a figure with a few confident strokes with the same ease as if it was as simple as buttoning your waistcoat'.
- Vincent van Gogh
>> No. 34450 [Edit]
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Oh damn. To hell with this topic then, if this guy was envious what chance do I stand.
Japanese are magic, case closed.
>> No. 34451 [Edit]
File 158558639318.png - (2.31MB , 2120x956 , jtow.png )
Alright, so what happens when Japanese artists try imitating western art? What sort of impression does that give?
I think it's a matter of accepting things as they are. No use fretting about something you can't change like your upbringing. Honestly, i'd rather draw like terufuu than like zun.
>> No. 34452 [Edit]
No amount of japan will make disney stuff appealing to me I think. Well Alice is pretty cute, actually.
>Honestly, i'd rather draw like terufuu than like zun.
I see what you are saying but unskilled as he is, zun's work is just naturally appealing enough that he created new iconic characters all over the place
>> No. 34453 [Edit]
Worth mentioning that the "Godfather of Manga" Osamu Tezuka took huge inspiration from Disney movies, namely Bambi.
>> No. 34454 [Edit]
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>No amount of japan will make disney stuff appealing to me I think.
Historically, the orgins of the art style we think of in otaku media comes down to three people, Walt Disney, Carl Banks and Osamu Tezuka. According to this dubious source, Banks and Tezuka were in correspondence until the latter died.

Here's a comparison of their art.
>> No. 34455 [Edit]
Yeah I've read about that, I meant more the specific characters.
Also I can't see much of a stylistic difference from the west in really early japanese animation.
**never mind that found one from 1947 that looks pretty japanese at times
I don't understand why I keep messing up the embed.

Post edited on 30th Mar 2020, 11:05am
>> No. 34456 [Edit]
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Winsor McCay and Little Nemo are also notable. A large number of people from Ghibli worked on this pilot for the movie. I think it looks better than the final product.
Here's a clip from the final film, which I'm pretty sure had less involvement from them. The script and voice acting is shit, so i'd turn the audio off.
This is the 1911 short Winsor McCay made, a phenomenal feat for its time.
>> No. 34457 [Edit]
My personal theory is that it has to do with two things in particular.
1: a desire to draw things that are "cute"
2: the way that they "shape draw" when they draw people is fundamentally different due to the way their people look

I know that second one sounds a little hard to believe, so I'll give some explanation. When people first start to draw, they mistakenly draw faces and objects using the "shapes" they think those things are made out of, rather than the actual lines and contours of the object. For example, a young western child trying to draw eyes will draw eyeballs as ellipses, they will draw large noses mad of triangular and circular shapes, and the head will be a long oval. As they progress in drawing, they will continue to "shape draw" until taught by a serious teacher, by which point certain conceptions of the fundamental shapes of humans are impossible to remove. From that point on they will always subconsciously draw people with those original simple abstractions in mind, no matter how well they can imitate real images. The is where the fundamental difference lies in my opinion. In japan, a child would NOT draw peoples eyes using the ellipse shape, nor would they make the face and oval, and the nose, being flat, most likely would take a lesser prominence on the face. In particular, the very core of the difference lies in the shape of the upper eye and eyelashes. There is a very specific oriental shape to their eyes, and that is what they are trained to see from birth. That is why western "anime" characters just don't look right, no matter how hard they imitate anime as an art-style they will always be trying to "shape draw" something different. When they draw eyes, they are trying to fit it into their perception of what an "eye" is made out of geometrically.
>> No. 34458 [Edit]
I used to draw from life a lot. When I first started, I tired drawing the entire outer "outline" of an object before going on the "inside" to put all the details. Then somebody told me to draw shapes instead, thinking about form instead of lines, and my drawings got substantially better. The world isn't made out of lines. I never drew people though.

Post edited on 30th Mar 2020, 2:58pm
>> No. 34459 [Edit]
I find it pretty believable. The fact that we see faces at all is a very specific structure of visual neuron. No reason to believe this structure is the same in all races.
>> No. 34460 [Edit]
File 158560714684.png - (2.78MB , 2218x918 , cc.png )
Okay, let's compare children's drawings then. Top is Japanese, bottom is western. They both use dots in the earliest stages. Maybe noses are more pronounced in the west?
>> No. 34461 [Edit]
How are you finding these so quickly?
>> No. 34462 [Edit]
Google and pixiv. I translated "children's drawing" to get the top ones. Maybe I'll get some middle schooler drawings next.

Maybe i'm reaching. I probably am, but the top ones might not outline the face as much. Instead there's more blobs of colors for the face. If i'm remembering right, skin tone crayons weren't that common in kindergarten. I had to use orange and red a lot, and it looked wrong.

Post edited on 30th Mar 2020, 3:59pm
>> No. 34463 [Edit]
File 158560928680.jpg - (404.78KB , 640x640 , cfbc9d135d58bc5c3ac972b14cb23d0af431902f.jpg )
Alright, thanks.
Browsing through I think there's a difference, the western ones seem to have less compact faces. Also the japanese ones seem to have at least hints of specular highlights in the eyes more often. And you are definitely right on the outlines.

Post edited on 30th Mar 2020, 4:02pm
>> No. 34464 [Edit]
Look at the eyelashes and the noses, when the japanese kids drew noses they drew them wide or not at all, and eyelashes are a single pointed line going out to the side. Western kids drew eyelashes as strands pointing upwards, and noses are long. Also, the faces seem to be generally longer. There's something else as well but I can't put my finger on it. I can tell that there's a difference, maybe it's the line work?
>> No. 34465 [Edit]
If it's due to physiology, the next obvious question is: why is it even appealing to us?
>> No. 34466 [Edit]
Good question. It's also not like anime characters actually look like asian people either for the most part. It's not an accurate portrayal.
>> No. 34467 [Edit]
I think what you are saying is correct, but there's a caveat. Even though I don't like cosplay in general, westerners in anime cosplay look even grosser than asian 3dpd cosplaying.
So I agree that the characters don't look asian, but still asians approximate them best.
>> No. 34468 [Edit]
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Westerner is broad. Slavic girls look very very different from anglo-saxon girls. A very cutsey Ukrainan girl would probably look better in cosplay than an orange-skinned square face, especially if it's something like silent hill or resident evil.

Pic is Van Gough's Japanoise imitation of a wood-print.

Post edited on 30th Mar 2020, 4:48pm
>> No. 34470 [Edit]
Yeah it's broad, I'm just saying the closest I've seen is asian. There's also that one famous turkish girl I suppose.***
***Oh jesus no, I hadn't looked her up in years. Forget that. Time is cruel, memories are unreliable, 3dpd is never OK.
>> No. 34471 [Edit]
Anzujaamu? I'm not a fan of cosplay either, I just looked up "turkish girl cosplay". In the pictures where she looks like a doll, it's okay, but that's all just makeup. Without any she's totally off the mark. It might as well be an actual mask.
>> No. 34472 [Edit]
Yeah.I had fuzzy memories of the pics.
I just saw her on video, it's horrifying.
Anyway, I stand by the idea that even though in a non obvious and unrealistic manner, the art style does reflect the japanese appearance.
>> No. 34473 [Edit]
It might be interesting to add that the MC in Eizouken also looks pretty ugly, almost like a JP imitation of a western character akin to (>>33630). I'm assuming the "ugly western aesthetic" was intentional just because of how different the artwork is to what you usually see an anime, so it might be fruitful to use that as a basis for comparison.
>> No. 34474 [Edit]
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It's trigger-esque. Pic was drawn by Takafumi Hori.
>> No. 34475 [Edit]
Not just the MC, eizouken's OP is one of the uglier things I've seen in a while as a whole, music included.
Panty & stocking might also be of interest here.
>> No. 34476 [Edit]
Eizouken is weird. It's supposed to be about how great anime is, but it seems afraid to look like one. The colors are also too muted.
I don't mind the song but the OP sequence is terrible. There's something like 10 frames of unique animation, and 30 seconds of it is just the title fading out. I'm irritated at all the praise it gets compared to so many other great openings and endings this season.
>> No. 34477 [Edit]
File 158567174460.png - (626.05KB , 1261x413 , cats.png )
I just remembered that I used to think anime was inspired by cats. Don't know if it's just a personal thing but maybe it's worth mentioning.
>I'm irritated at all the praise it gets
The moment I looked at it I knew it was bait for a large and obnoxious audience. I was surprised that it wasn't produced for netflix.
>> No. 34478 [Edit]
>I just remembered that I used to think anime was inspired by cats. Don't know if it's just a personal thing but maybe it's worth mentioning.
Generally, cats are super cute, and their eyes are an important component to their perceived adorableness. So I can understand your former thinking.
>> No. 34479 [Edit]
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Hm maybe that's why catgirls work so well
>> No. 34480 [Edit]
Anime as a whole probably wasn't directly inspired by cats, but there's a lot of characters I've seen that I tend to think act like cats or look like cats.
Maybe that's just because I have too many cats.
>> No. 34484 [Edit]
File 158578230771.jpg - (135.19KB , 547x937 , 20200314.jpg )
Capcom's new cat based puzzle game lets you unlock cat versions of your favorite Street Fighter characters
>> No. 34524 [Edit]
That last part about including something because one happens to like it looks more like a feature common to lots of different kinds of literatures to me; as opposed to anime in particular, that is. Be that as it may, it certainly is one of fiction's major allures.

Maybe the uniqueness of Japanese anime / culture is just a myth after all; one that large parts of the world have been, not even consciously, fostering for centuries. Of course there must be an air of elusive exceptionality blowing into the face of someone considering Anime in such an environment. The reason, however, is not some innate property of Anime, but as I mentioned before, the great effort that has been undertaken to write the elusive qualities of Japaneseness into Japan.
>> No. 38371 [Edit]
I rather western animation do their own thing rather than shamelessly copy anime.
>> No. 38377 [Edit]
They do. And it's shit.
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