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34234 No. 34234 hide watch expand quickreply [Reply] [Edit] [First 100 posts] [Last 50 posts]
What are your thoughts on it? Do you care? Has it affected you at all?

I know a lot of people are probably sick of hearing about it by now, but I thought it'd be interesting to get TC's point of view on it and see what you guy's think.
234 posts and 33 images omitted. Click Reply to view.
>> No. 38545 [Edit]
>>38442
>Instead, what we see is that those affected the most are those with hair-trigger immune systems (the young, or possibly those with existing auto-immune conditions) and only after the body has already been primed for a strong response by the first dose.
The immune system is actually weakest in children, adolescents and the elderly, but strongest in adults (~20 and older and ~40 and younger). Immune system over-reaction in my opinion would also seem to be an incorrect assumption on the part of why the so-called "long COVID" symptoms do persist. Genuine immune system over-reactions result in like what seen during the 1918 Spanish Flu pandemic wherein adults experienced a "cytokine storm," and not children, adolescents, or the elderly. When disposing infected cells, the immune system dispatches cytokine cells, which destroy the infected cells. In most cases, this does not lead to further problems, but in the case of Spanish Flu, it resulted in the lungs of those afflicted filling with pus, which they would unceremoniously drown in. Otherwise, an immune system over-reactions would result in anaphylaxis - "blood pressure drops suddenly and your airways narrow, blocking breathing." [1]

[1] https://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/anaphylaxis/symptoms-causes/syc-20351468
>> No. 38546 [Edit]
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38546
>>38545
Sorry. Got my facts a little mixed up with how COVID tends not to severely affect the young, but is more severe with age. It is still true that the immune system is weakest among children and the elderly, but it's most certainyly NOT true that the Spanish Flu didn't kill or more severely infect children or the elderly.

What was unique about Spanish Flu is that there was that pronounced spike in the middle of the mortality distribution, where young adults ended up succumbing to the illness as a consequence of their immune system over-reacting. Still, this would seem a point against the "immune system over-reactions causing 'long COVID'" hypothesis, since long COVID anecdotally seems to affect everyone, including children [1]. In particular this study found that, "12.9 per cent of UK children aged 2 to 11, and 14.5 per cent of children aged 12 to 16, still have symptoms five weeks after their first infection." Among 'older' people, "Among participants with COVID-19, persistent symptoms were reported by 17 of 64 patients (26.6%) aged 18 to 39 years, 25 of 83 patients (30.1%) aged 40 to 64 years, and 13 of 30 patients (43.3%) aged 65 years and older. Overall, 49 of 150 outpatients (32.7%), 5 of 16 hospitalized patients (31.3%)." [2] Over all, it would seem that approximately 30% of people from all age groups will experience long COVID symptoms, however, as of this point, I think it's fairly safe to say that the total duration of these symptoms is anyone's guess.


Sorry for any misunderstanding.

[1] https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7927578/
[2] https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamanetworkopen/fullarticle/2776560
>> No. 38547 [Edit]
>>38545
Good thoughts. I came across this recent paper [1] which seems to indicate that one cause may be that for long-haulers, the S1 subunit of the spike protein persists in monocytes even months after original covid infection. I wonder if this is the same cause of the rare but non-trivial side-effects of the vaccines, since it's the same underlying spike protein (modulo that 2p mutation).

This would explain the increased effects after the second dose, but not the seeming age-dependence for side-effects like myocarditis. Although since the viral-vector vaccines don't have this particular side effect occurring at observable rates, maybe that one is caused by the lipid nanoparticles triggering inflammatory responses.

[1] https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.06.25.449905v1.full.pdf

Post edited on 15th Jul 2021, 5:50pm
>> No. 38557 [Edit]
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38557
>>38547
Anonymous, I think you might just be onto something. I remembered reading about the coronavirus back when it first emerged and there was quite a bit of talk about how the coronavirus would infect cells, namely it used the ACE2 receptor on cells. In particular, the ACE2 receptor is involved in several processes such as mediating inflammation and blood pressure. That being the case, I really, really wonder if in cases of COVID long-haulers and the previously mentioned post-viral fatigue is a result of auto-immune disorder. What I mean by that is this: both the vaccines as well as the coronavirus itself work by targeting the spike protein which itself is mimicking angiotensin proteins in order to gain access to the cell. Hypothetically, if the trained immune system response was similar enough between recognizing the coronavirus spike protein and the angiotensin protein, the immune system might collect these proteins to the reciprocally binding protein on the surface of immune cells and antigen identifying proteins. Supposing this is truly the case, it would mean that the immune system is disrupting normal bodily function not as an over-reaction to disease, or even an inappropriate reaction, but merely that the particular orientation of the most common binding protein created by the immune system also so happened to affect BOTH the coronavirus' spike protein AND normal human proteins. In the case of post-viral fatigue, it may well be the case that it's not necessarily the same protein that gets affected, but otherwise has a similar outcome.

Otherwise, supposing this auto-immune disorder hypothesis is not correct, I wouldn't be surprised if the spike protein persisting in monocytes does explain the same situation but in reverse; rather than a decrease in angiotensin proteins, monocytes lysing possibly releases these stored spike proteins which inadvertently bind with ACE2 receptors otherwise interrupting their normal function, or causing expression of the same behavior as angiotensin causes.


These are just some spur of the moment thoughts of mine. I would be interested to know if there's been any research into these ideas at all.

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28872 No. 28872 hide watch expand quickreply [Reply] [Edit]
What's a suitable automobile for the tohno-chan veteran?
18 posts and 9 images omitted. Click Reply to view.
>> No. 38476 [Edit]
Fiat 500.
>> No. 38552 [Edit]
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38552
Honda Civic
>> No. 38554 [Edit]
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38554
I highly recommend any new DS automobile, though I'll bring more attention to the up-and-coming DS 4.
PSA cars have been getting more reliable and comfortable. DS's current lineup in particular is very elegant throughout and stands apart from the stereotyped German luxury car. Quite appropriate for the genteel european Tohno-chan veteran.
>> No. 38555 [Edit]
I believe in buying the most cost effective car possible. Second hand, reliable model, high fuel efficiency. Cheap cars can be damaged without guilt, expensive cars are a costly form of masturbation.

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37253 No. 37253 hide watch quickreply [Reply] [Edit] [First 100 posts] [Last 50 posts]
What are some things that really bug you?
Things that genuinely piss you off?

I thought it would be nice to have a thread to vent about any little annoyance, no mater how big or small.
Any and all complains about the world around you are welcome here!
433 posts and 97 images omitted. Click Reply to view.
>> No. 38543 [Edit]
>>38542
Here are some of the things lower case pi can represent
>The mathematical real transcendental (and thus irrational) constant π ≈ 3.14159...
>The prime-counting function in mathematics.
>Homotopy groups in algebraic topology.
>Dimensionless parameters constructed using the Buckingham π theorem of dimensional analysis.
>The hadron called the pion (pi meson).
>Economic profit in microeconomics.
>Inflation rate in macroeconomics.
>A type of chemical bond in which the p orbitals overlap, called a pi bond.
>The natural projection on the tangent bundle on a manifold.
>The unary operation of projection in relational algebra.
>Policy in reinforcement learning.
When looking at an equation, I'd rather know exactly what it is because the symbols are unique than rely on context. There's a reason programmers use every variable in one way and one way only. Yes they make a new variable for every usage.

Post edited on 14th Jul 2021, 2:50pm
>> No. 38544 [Edit]
>>38543
Yes all of those are true, but it's usually clear from context. If you're reading an ML paper and you suddenly see π, you can bet it's not going to refer to bonds.

In some sense this is just convention you have to familiarize yourself with. Assigning a new symbol each time seems strictly worse to me because it's like reading a new language every time, it's harder to physically recognize the symbols. E.g. if we started randomly using kana characters or wingdings so that we can assign a unique symbol, it's going to take you about three times as long just to physically parse it. All your muscle memory on recognizing glyphs goes out the window, all for not much benefit in the first place since it only marginally benefits those who are new to the field.

There are larger fish to fry. You could take issue with the overloaded use of the word "normal" in mathematics. Normal distribution? Normal vector? Normal subgroup? These are much more ambiguous, and unlike π where it is clear just from the context whether it's being used to mean the irrational number, or as a function, "normal" as an adjective so overloaded that you can't really tell at a glance.
>> No. 38548 [Edit]
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38548
I hate ragefags and I hate how common it is to tolerate them. The type of people who type in all caps and fly off the handle at the slightest of slight provocations. They actively look for more things to get pissed off about and give them an excuse to antagonize others. Not only do they never produce anything worthwhile themselves, they actively make things worse for others.

It takes just one of these cancerous lumps of bitterness and spite to ruin a place. And yet mods don't care 9/10 times. Mandating the most basic level of civilized behavior is seen as an over step on imageboards. It makes no sense. Websites that are about having fun have no interest in keeping people like that around.
>> No. 38553 [Edit]
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38553
Recently I've been playing an rpg. I don't play them often, but when I do, I spend entire days sucked in. Thinking about why I do this, I realized it's because these games and their stories are so much more interesting than my own life and real in general, I'd rather live in them to the point of ignoring my actual life.

The question is, how'd people ever even conceive of something so much more interesting than reality? Where did they get the ideas from? In any game dungeon, you can walk around and find all sorts of interesting things left by other people or just naturally there. Real life caves are pretty much nothing like this.

So how'd someone get the idea to make an interesting cave?

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16448 No. 16448 hide watch quickreply [Reply] [Edit] [First 100 posts] [Last 50 posts]
Ponderings general 2. Post things you've thought about.

Previous thread >>15685
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>> No. 38537 [Edit]
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38537
>>38525
The same thoughts have occurred to me. If you count up the number of female main characters in the anime I watch and manga I read, they'll outnumber the men by 10x. Not at all the case in the non-otaku fiction I'm into. That's just how it turned out, and I have no strong opinions on how it should have otherwise gone.
>> No. 38538 [Edit]
>>38529
Anime has taught me self-hate, for masculinity kind of sucks.
>> No. 38539 [Edit]
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38539
If you had 5 billion dollars, how would you spend it? People with that much money are boring as hell and don't do much of anything interesting, but they probably have to be in order to make that much. If I had that money though...

Think about how expensive the stuff you like is, and then think about 5 billion dollars. A 12 episode season of anime costs somewhere around 2 million, so you could make 2500 seasons, about 20 years worth. If there's any kind of tool or program or game you've wanted but doesn't exist, you could easily fund it.

4 people have over 100 billion dollars. If there's about 30 anime per season, that's 120 anime per year. Those people could fund 416 years worth of anime and still be left over with at least 20 billion dollars.

It's insane. Yet how many cool things like that have come from billionaires just out of their own personal interest? Not as a company or investment, just a hobby-centric spending of money that others could benefit from. Practically none. Elon Musk pretends to like anime. Does he really not have enough money to spare to help the production of one? Just one.

Post edited on 12th Jul 2021, 11:15am
>> No. 38540 [Edit]
>>38539
Spending it on things like art (shows, manga, LN, etc.) seems like the best way to leave a lasting impact. It's something that everyone will benefit from, and seems more directly impactful than the cliché of sending money to help starving 3rd world kids since you can physically manage the money allocation.

Speaking of which, I have a strong suspicion that the Sora no Method OVA was sponsored by some rich guy. I just can't see any other reason why they'd release a full-length ova for a very niche show that never sold well in the first place, and that too completely free on youtube.

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36618 No. 36618 hide watch expand quickreply [Reply] [Edit]
Given that many people here likely have a lot of spare time (and especially with recent circumstances, even those who attended uni or had fulltime jobs are probably in front of a computer as well), what do you spend your days doing? Is most of it spent in front of the screen, flitting between imageboards and anime-watching? Or do you prefer to engange in more physical hobbies?
29 posts and 9 images omitted. Click Reply to view.
>> No. 36783 [Edit]
>>36753
I don't know why I never liked literature too much.
I can read a lot, as long as it's not fiction.
But to read a novel requires me to have a particular interest in what that novel talks about. I have read Hess, Sartre, Proust, the classics, mostly bored me to death or didn't interest me enough at best. I end thinking I could be reading a non-fiction book about real things instead. I think it's a lack of interest in the medium for what it is, while I can take comics or movies and appreciate them in a deeper level.

I think I will try to draw soon, your post helped me to decide, really.
>> No. 36886 [Edit]
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36886
Thinking of DEATH
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WPz9Fcvb1II
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v1vXC-vKgKg
>> No. 38235 [Edit]
I walk & talk. Trying to shed winter fat and meet up with friends again.
>> No. 38468 [Edit]
Kind of depends on what I feel like doing but it's mostly a mix of YouTube, web surfing, vidya, and anime. Sometimes I study Japanese and Japanese cooking too. My parents and relatives might need help with some things like yard work but that's about it.

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33794 No. 33794 hide watch expand quickreply [Reply] [Edit] [Last 50 posts]
I started learning Japanese, well I already did, but took a couple of months off and am now getting back into it. Same story you've heard a million times, whatever. I made the "mistake" of learning all N5 words outside of context because I thought that would be more efficient and I didn't feel like doing worksheets. On one hand, I'm still familiar with all that vocab, on the other hand, learning it in tandem with grammar would have been better. Anyway, I'm not interested in speaking. My goal is fluent literacy. I wanna read something like Saya no Uta smoothly and with crystal clear understanding, really enjoy myself. How difficult would that be? I'm willing to shoot myself in the foot in another area of the language to expedite this specific goal.

I've learned a bit more about the "Japanese Learning Community" and came across AJATT. I find it to be weird and kind of culty. Look at this

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lzLBf7l5G-g&feature=youtu.be

It's so bizarre to me. These guys are completely obsessed with perfectly replicating a "native speaker". Use all the right pitch accents and all the right expressions without ever deviating so no one can tell the difference. I started comparing this approach with how English is spoken. Different people say words differently. Some people talk in a sing-song sort of way, others like they're always asking a question. Maybe it sounds dumb or annoying, but I'd never say they're speaking English incorrectly. Every person probably has their own quirks and I like making up my own expressions and getting a little creative. Is Japanese really so uniform between every person(with the same dialect)? What about people with accents? Not only are accents acceptable in English, they're desirable in some cases. My parents have an accent, yet i'd still say their english is perfect.


Imagine if I made a video responding to a German guy trying to speak English in the "perfect way" with no accent or anything "nonnative", and I paused every few seconds to point out some slight inaccuracy in how a word is spoken. How weird would that be? You'd think that German guy is misguided and w
Message too long. Click here to view the full text.
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>> No. 38464 [Edit]
>>38460
Does this work? Are the lyrics not hard to parse nonsense?
>> No. 38466 [Edit]
>>38464
Yes, it works. I find it much more useful than using books or anime. These kind of works are very narrative drive, which requires an extra effort to keep up with, also if you miss something a lot of the fun is gone, and it piles up so in the end you can't keep up anymore. Music on the other hand, can be enjoyed without even having the slightest idea of what the singer is saying. It also works on a subconscious level, whereupon sometimes you will be doing another thing completely unrelated and remember a song, and it plays in your head pleasantly, even then you're listening to it and learning. The only setbacks of doing this is that sometimes you can't make out the sounds, but even then there's lyrics online. Music without easily searchable lyrics like this one is very hard to come by. But I'm still a beginner, so take this with a grain of salt.
>> No. 38467 [Edit]
>>38466
Thanks. I had considered doing the same but came up with excuses. I'll go ahead an try.
>> No. 38474 [Edit]
>>38466
I concur that this works well. The most important part of learning a language is practice, and songs naturally get stuck in your head so you're basically practicing it throughout the day. What I do is pick an OP/ED I really like (strong emotional connection makes this more effective), read through the lyrics once in kana (or romaji) form so you can actually lex the individual words, try to interpret as much as I can based on existing knowledge, read the English lyrics, listen again, and repeat the last two steps over the course of a few weeks.

If you come across a song without English translation, that's also an opportunity for you to practice translation skills and contribute back to the community. Song translations are a great stress test of your JP skills since they will often use more obscure (sometimes archaic) grammatical patterns, word play, and will leave a lot of stuff up to interpretation.

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9442 No. 9442 hide watch quickreply [Reply] [Edit] [First 100 posts] [Last 50 posts]
I don't think we had a movie thread yet so I wanted to ask, does /tc/ watch movies? What was the last one you saw? Have any good recommendations or favorite genres? Do you like american, european or asian cinema?
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>> No. 38431 [Edit]
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38431
>>38430
I think the plan was to find John's house and "talk to him" there. Since he wasn't home, he opted to look for him instead of waiting for him to come back. So the approach and kill method seemed like the default this time too.
>we're probably putting in more thought than the writers possibly did
Yeah. I love cat and mouse stories.
>> No. 38432 [Edit]
>>38431
Right, I forgot he went to his home first. I guess the idea was to just shoot him in the face the moment he came to the door, the way the T-800 did in the first movie with the wrong targets he killed.
>> No. 38462 [Edit]
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38462
I watched Alien 1979 yesterday. It was alright. The characters were really careless multiple times throughout, which was kind of annoying, but typical for horror. Ripley is noticeably more competent than everybody else. Despite being nearly two hours long, the plot is also pretty thin. The most interesting part of the film is H. R. Giger's visual input. I've already seen all of that imagery before, so it didn't have as much of a visceral impact as it could, and there wasn't that much of it in the movie either.

The xenomorph is an odd thing. The movie outright says its a perfect organism and an extremely hostile predator, but it relies on stealth and its prey freezing in fear. Ripley was even able to outrun one at the end. In a world were they can make androids indistinguishable from humans, it's odd that anybody would be interested in xenomorphs as a weapon given how they're depicted here.

As a vehicle for horror though, the xenomorph is pretty effective. Alien smartly keeps its appearances to a minimum. The slow, plodding scenes also effectively created tension, at the expense of eating up a lot of runtime.

Ripley is pretty interesting in that she's a western, competent female character who isn't obnoxious, lacking in humanity, or a mary sue. I read that the movie was written without having any sex decided for any character. This is probably the only way a character like Ripley as she is in this movie could be made.

I don't really want to watch the sequel, Aliens. What James Cameron felt like doing to a 70's sci-fi horror(making it an action flick) directed by somebody else, doesn't interest me. The premise sounds dumb and a sequel didn't feel necessary in the first place. After the first movie, Ripley is also established to be female, so that magic of ambiguous writing is also impossible here on out.
>> No. 38465 [Edit]
>>38425
>>38430
>>38431
>>38432
I particularly prefer the first one.
>it makes a lot more sense for skynet to send nukes back in time (covered in flesh if need be)
Yes, but that nuke would first have to be programmed to blow up. Skynet can't communicate with the Terminator after they sent it to the past, so they would not be able to blow the nuke up. It would be necessary to design a smart nuke capable of blowing itself after X time, but this can be complicated when dealing with time travel, or the time travel machine can be hard to operate and Skynet would end up nuking itself. Also, sending it in flesh with a lot of time to spare would call the attention of the populace and it could be defused first. Now, it's been a while since I've seen the movie but don't we know from Terminator 3 that Connor's 3DPD father who is army personnel and ends up activating skynet lives at a driving distance? I don't remember how far her father lived from their location. Nuking everything could kill him as well and prevent skynet from being activated. Also, if a nuke goes live the army personnel would suspect of treason within its ranks, or a spy network, and skynet could be put in the back burner.

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36543 No. 36543 hide watch expand quickreply [Reply] [Edit]
Let's say that for whatever reason you can never use the internet ever again. Everything you have is still there, but you can't download or stream anything new. What do you do to pass the time and keep busy from now on?
13 posts and 1 image omitted. Click Reply to view.
>> No. 36559 [Edit]
>>36543
I built a large home-server just to store backlogs. Manga, anime, LNs, pulp, survival guides, occult library, books on history and philosophy, etc. etc. Terrabytes of the stuff, likely more than I can watch/read in one lifetime.
Aside from that, work more in the garden/forest and meditate more since 24/7 of passive entertainment gets old. I should probably back up more vidya too.
>> No. 36564 [Edit]
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36564
I'd be fine for a long time. A few years ago I got into archiving as something of a hobby and that led to acquiring a ton of stuff because I found it fun. Getting all of it, organizing it, figuring out how to acquire it at scale. I still tinker with it from time to time but not nearly as much. Good for my wallet because I haven't had to buy any easyshuck's for a while.

The more annoying thing would be losing access to youtube and anidb. For all the shit I have downloaded I spend (waste) a lot more time on youtube. I have most of the channels I'm remotely interested in backed up but a lot of it doesn't have much rewatch potential and dates itself fast. Losing AniDB would be another pain in the ass because I have all of my media in plex and to get it to work you have to use their naming convention which isn't consistent. Sometimes I have to go to anidb just to figure out what name they used for some series because it isn't always consistent.

I have plenty of games, a fair amount of books. Music would get stale fast. What I have is all in flac and a lot of my audio is podcasts so it's actually not all that much. I'm kind of a pleb and stream most of my music off youtube because I just haven't been bothered to figure out a real way of automating it.

I'd like to say I'd go outside and be more productive but I'd probably just live the same existence. I went 6 months without the internet to see if it'd help me be more motivated but I mostly still just sat inside playing Minecraft.

>>36554
I like the custom icons. That's always seemed like a fun project to me but a lot of effort.
>> No. 36567 [Edit]
>>36564
>I like the custom icons.

Most of them are from a huge pack of icons you can easily find. But lots of obscure OVA's and weird stuff are made by me, when I had most folders with icons but some without them I felt the need to have them all the same, and with folder growth it became some sort of autistic fixation, there's shows without even logos of any kind and I still made icons for them. I learned to properly use GIMP only because of this weird obsession.
>> No. 38448 [Edit]
I would drop the internet and go read books, learn a new skill, and start doing more things with my waifu. Maybe I would become a productive member of society

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28733 No. 28733 hide watch expand quickreply [Reply] [Edit]
Is Loli/Shota allowed here? It's technically illegal.

I deleted my stashes all a long time ago out of paranoia.
6 posts omitted. Click Reply to view.
>> No. 38419 [Edit]
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38419
>>28733
So if you draw a murder of underaged fictional character, that's legal. But if you draw a underaged fictional character doing it, you go to jail. That's USA for you.
>> No. 38420 [Edit]
>>38419
>if you draw a underaged fictional character doing it, you go to jail
No, not really. In the US, that's not the case. People have been arrested who just so happened to also have loli, or they've been arrested for importing a lot of physical media. I've never read a case about an artist being arrested.
>> No. 38505 [Edit]
>>38419
Not really no. We have a lot of fucked laws but loli/shota is in a strange gray area and prosecution for it is exceedingly rare. People have been arrested crossing the border into Canada with it though.
>> No. 38556 [Edit]
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38556
The legal grey area of it sometimes bothers me, but I do things that are more commonly prosecuted like extensive piracy and it doesn't as much. The law on it changing is sometimes what haunts me though. I'm not a lolicon, but I do enjoy /ss/ even though for me it's more about the height difference and penis size.

That map is either bait or severely outdated as well, Canada is known for enforcing their laws on this. (But if you rape a native woman, you're good).

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29631 No. 29631 hide watch expand quickreply [Reply] [Edit]
i hung one of these in the window a week ago, but its still raining.
do these things only work in japan or do i need to put batteries in it or what?
1 post omitted. Click Reply to view.
>> No. 29634 [Edit]
If anime has thought me anything it's that teru teru bozu aren't all that effective. According to anime a much more reliable strategy is to find someone who's sad and cheer them up.
>> No. 29635 [Edit]
Try folding it properly next time
>> No. 29640 [Edit]
You probably need a 2D one since 3D anything is never as good as 2D. Probably also needs to be made by a 2D loli at that for full potency.
>> No. 38418 [Edit]
>>29631
As effective as singing "Rain rain go away"

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33410 No. 33410 hide watch expand quickreply [Reply] [Edit] [First 100 posts] [Last 50 posts]
I browse wiki to read interesting stuff:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/

News, mainly tech news:
https://news.ycombinator.com
https://slashdot.org/

I try to minimise reddit/youtube as I can get addicted to it.
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>> No. 38163 [Edit]
ExHentai for pornography.
Arch Linux Wiki for general Linux information.
A small variety of anonymous imageboards for when I have downtime.
>> No. 38340 [Edit]
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38340
>>37919
Down? Try https://invidious.fdn.fr/
>> No. 38366 [Edit]
>>37435
Reddit is still uneeded in your scenario. If you want to find "pink haired maids" go look up tags on a booru or pixiv (As you have said, you use gelbooru). And why do you care about recognition for your posts so much? Just like >>37443 said, if you post on a smaller imageboard, your posts will be more valued than somewhere like 4chan.
>> No. 38417 [Edit]
>>38366
If you have to use reddit, use teddit as per >>37266

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